As much as I hate Elon, this is a terrible idea. Cheap Chinese trash mobiles built by Uyghur slave labor are not the answer.
How about we build cars in Canada instead?
Except they aren’t trash, they’re better than Teslas that’s for sure.
They are still data hungry, surveillance machines that are allways online and gps tracked. We need cars without that kinda shit built in.
There has been talks about forcing Chinese cars to come over disconnected. Every new car is a surveillance machine. The western brands will not be asked to disconnect anything and it will probably be illegal to do so yourself, so Chinese cars might be an actual win in that regard.
American car company secretly send your driving data to your insurance company so they can squeeze more out from you for any minor reason they see fit. There’s no reason canada insurance company won’t do that. Scared about chinese car collecting your data is kinda missed the point, you should have stronger data protection instead.
exactly like their US counterparts though
I’de rather China have my data than an company over here. What are they gunna do with it that would affect me?
that’s exactly what got us in this mess in the first place.
What mess? American Imperialism / Capitalism imploding on itself?
A foreign power having far, far too much control over our economic possessions. Information is a resource; what they do with it is inconsequential, we have to stop giving it away to people simply because they’re our ‘trade partners’ right now.
So a direct consequence of Usamerican capitalism/Imperialism, got it.
Correlation attacks, China is king of hoovering up data.
Overly dramatic example: you are in the armed forces, you have a TikTok account, you post a bunch of shit that shows you are in the armed forces. You get deployed for some covert fuckabout and are told to leave your phone at home. You turn off your phone, pick up 3 of your buddies in your Chinese EV and drive to the base/airport/sea port. Dozens of people do this and by seeing the pattern China knows that a bunch of armed forces are being told to quietly deploy.
A less dramatic example might be figuring out where politicians are by knowing where their employees are.
Nobody hoovers up more data than the US.
Remember when Elon remotely unlocked that cybertruck recently and accessed the cameras?
Nobody hoovers up more data than the US.
The US can’t even unlock an iPhone without calling in 3rd parties. EVERY Chinese made device collects data, and every Chinese business gives full access to the Chinese government. The US government does collect data but it’s no where near the scale of the Chinese.
Remember when Elon remotely unlocked that cybertruck recently and accessed the cameras?
He unlocked a device made by a company he owns, running software they designed on a network they operate. All that shows is that Tesla’s vehicles are not properly secured and remote access can be abused by Tesla employees.
We have roughly three million ways to say “US bad” right now, and you pick a less than true one.
US government data collection is not on the scale of China. The US is limited in what it gets from companies. China is absolutely not.
Yes, the US should absolutely have more data protection laws. The EU is better. China is absolutely not.
False
Why would I give a shit about China knowing about where murderers are?
Hello, ml.
What are they gunna do with it that would affect me?
Use it as blackmail if we ever end up in a war against them
My toenail clippings are better than Teslas.
That’s what my friend in NZ told me too, they’re really good, better or the same as Tesla.
Except they aren’t trash, they’re better than Teslas that’s for sure.
It’s possible to be trash and also better than Tesla…
That’s a low fucking bar lol
Build cars in Germany, Japan, South Korea and the like. focus on something non car you can sell to them in return. You can do anything but not everything.
Building cars is something we already do in Canada. And there’s currently a lot of capacity coming online to build electric cars. Pretty much the entire car could be sourced from Canadian parts, including the batteries. I think semi-conductors are the only thing that doesn’t have a domestic source right now.
Sedans please.
But we were fine with the usa destroying multiple countries, participating in many coups and supporting Israel for decades.
Cheap Chinese trash mobiles built by Uyghur slave labor are not the answer.
Source?
How about we build cars in Canada instead?
Another person who thinks the world is like a SIMS game… just press the button and the factory pops up, right?!
EVs are easier to build than gas cars at least
While there are still a lot of low quality things produced en masse in China, this take is getting more and more out of date.
South Korea and Japan used to make cheap crap too until their industrial output developed to the point the average quality was high.
We have reached this point to a certain degree with China too. Their EVs sure as hell are better than Tesla’s.
There’s a lot of high quality stuff coming out of China now, along with crap.
LOL, have you seen the EVs that are coming out of China nowadays?
If they were trash the EU and US wouldn’t put tariffs on them, because they wouldn’t threaten our own manufacturers no?
Aren’t Chrysler, Fords, and GMs already built in Canada, or at least a bunch of the parts of them?
They should ban the Cybertruck altogether for being an unnecessarily dangerous vehicle.
At least keep the tracking and voice-recording (for Ai) in-country. I don’t see that in a provable fashion in the cheap asian cars.
I would be sympathetic if the Uyghur stuff was true.
Do you have any substantial sources, to objectively prove your claims? I’ve never seen anything convincing.
I’m not intending to simp for China. They are authoritarian. But I’m also not going to fall for propaganda especially if it’s false. The USA has a motive for making the masses hate China.
There is plenty of evidence widely available from organizations like human rights watch and amnesty international. Claims that deny any evidence exist of the persecution of China’s Muslim population rely on logical fallacies to attempt to obscure the validity of the body of evidence. Namely ad hominem attacks against the individual who first gathered the evidence to begin with.
While the researcher obviously has biased opinions about the CCP, that doesn’t affect the validity of the evidence gathered, most of which comes directly from publicly available information released by the CCP itself, or from leaked internal communication from party members that have been widely verified by reputable journalists and organizations specializing in human rights violations.
While I personally wouldn’t claim that there is a genocide as we traditionally understand it has occurred, it’s hard to deny that the Uyghur people aren’t being systemically oppressed or that significant human rights violations haven’t occurred.
Simply looking at publicly available census data releases by the CCP we can tell that Uyghur people are being driven from culturally important sites that are being replaced by ethnically Han Chinese, and that Uyghur populations have been shrinking at a worryingly abnormal rate.
If we look at recent history of ethnic conflict within China in tibet, Manchuria, and inner Mongolia, I fail to see why it’s logical to assume that the accusations of crimes against humanity is pure propaganda.
Han chauvinism is well documented, and even Mao Zedong spoke about how it would negatively affect the future of the party. Ethnic conflict/cleansing has been a constant in the region and is part of the foundational history of modern China.
While I personally wouldn’t claim that there is a genocide as we traditionally understand it has occurred, it’s hard to deny that the Uyghur people aren’t being systemically oppressed or that significant human rights violations haven’t occurred.
It is politicization to be overly critical of China over what is a reasonable solution to peace and prosperity in the region, while the west contributes to 1000x worse treatment of Palestinians. That politicization gap shows that there is zero concern for actual genocide or persecution and instead a desire for (or avoidance for Israel for) political criticism independent of prosperity/facts.
It is politicization to be overly critical of China over what is a reasonable solution to peace and prosperity in the region
So… Forcing an entire ethnic group into concentration camps, forced migration, forced assimilation, and depopulation is reasonable? For what, because there were a couple attacks from some extremists?
while the west contributes to 1000x worse treatment of Palestinians.
I wasn’t aware it was a competition? Human rights violations should be criticized no matter who’s doing it.
That politicization gap shows that there is zero concern for actual genocide or persecution and instead a desire for (or avoidance for Israel for) political criticism independent of prosperity/facts.
Again… I’m not the American government. I am very critical of the US governments involvement with many genocides throughout history. I am also very critical of any government who participates in similar human rights violations, because I’m not a massive hypocrite.
So… Forcing an entire ethnic group into concentration camps, forced migration, forced assimilation, and depopulation is reasonable? For what, because there were a couple attacks from some extremists?
Hard proof of all of that has never been produced. Contrary facts exist for all your points.
What do you consider hard proof?
As I said, most of the information used has been verified by independent reporters or human rights organizations.
If you required the same level of “hard proof” as you are dictating for China then most crimes against humanity never happened.
We have video and pictures of concentration camps, we have verified internal documents, we have demographics released to the public by the offending government, we have personal testimony, we have announcements from the government admitting to moderate the birth limits of an extreme minority in the country…
What else could you possibly want?
secret papers can’t be hard proof. Neither is a photo of what may be a prison. There are extremely weak documentaries trying to hype up “re-education”, but the US pledge of allegiance would be equivalent indoctrination.
If you required the same level of “hard proof” as you are dictating for China then most crimes against humanity never happened.
at the risk of whataboutism, you have Israel engaged in genocidal mass murder on video. Politics of shit talking China is far more important than any objective principle of oppression.
We have video and pictures of concentration camps, we have verified internal documents, we have demographics released to the public by the offending government, we have personal testimony, we have announcements from the government admitting to moderate the birth limits of an extreme minority in the country…
There is genuine context/exaggeration to all of these points. Demographics and income specifically show Xinxiang doing better than average in China.
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Oh boy, genocide denial.
deleted by creator
What they were doing was textbook sealioning. This information is right there for anyone to find and has been for years.
deleted by creator
Why would organisations who aren’t scared to criticise the west and have a really good track record like anmety intl and HRW make the suffering of the Uyghur people up?
It’s really fucking hard for me to understand why many people have so much trouble accepting both China/Russia and the West are heavily unethical. There’s no magic place that does everything ethically, and I don’t know why we’re refusing to acknowledge the cultural genocide of a large population, leading to extreme suffering for hunderds of thousands, because it criticises one country. It doesn’t matter who did it, it absolutely is awful, and we shouldn’t be denying it. Denying it only compounds the extreme suffering the population faces.
It’s so weird to me that people who defend China’s treatment of Uyghurs turn it into a US vs China thing. You can look through my recent history and find me saying that Biden, Harris, and everyone in Congress who clapped for Netanyahu have committed genocide and can rot in hell. Trump, of course, is even worse. This isn’t a “muh both sides bad enlightened centrism” thing because this isn’t a “sides” issue to begin with. Three of the four major superpowers on Earth right now are authoritarian hellholes, and the EU is on its way to joining them with its shift toward neo-Nazism.
If China is authoritarian and censors all information that makes China look bad, and spreads propaganda to other countries that those Governments are spreading propaganda to make China look bad and China isn’t actually bad, does it matter what is motivating the US to say “China Bad” when they objectively are?
I would be sympathetic if the Uyghur stuff was true.
This is denial, plain and simple.
It is not everyone else’s job to provide this ignoramus sources on the facts of the matter when we are all communicating on the internet where those facts can be found. Especially when no source can possibly be good enough when “they haven’t seen anything convincing yet” even though everyone but China and their allies are saying the same damn thing, including people who have fled China, and they are only referencing US sources.
Let’s use some simple logic here, bub.
deleted by creator
I don’t think that being uninformed is denying genocide and I think it’s antisocial, divisive, and not beneficial to any of us to treat it as if it is.
I don’t think deleting the parent comment so context is lost is good practice. I think it is antisocial, divisive, and not beneficial to any one who wants to keep up with the conversation.
But you did it anyways. Like how OP explicitly denied a genocide is happening.
Both things happened, and that’s a fact.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
The majority of UN countries are on their side, Muslim majority countries included.
And claiming “U.N. body rejects debate on China’s treatment of Uyghur Muslims in blow to West” means a majority of countries on their side is just dishonest. China has a massive economy and is able to put political pressure on plenty of nations in the UN.
This would be like saying America has never pressured another nation into voting for something in the UN.
I think even the countries that abstained are on their side.
They’re obviously being pressured to be on that side but all of the UNSC veto holders do that. The veto power shouldn’t exist because this is what happens. Veto holders are allowed to bully whoever they want with no meaningful consequences.
even the countries that abstained are on their side.
What do you mean by on their side? Are you saying they don’t believe human rights violations happened, are you saying they are just politically aligned with China, or that worried about political backlash from China?
They’re not willing to stand up to an obvious bully and push for further investigation. Closer to your second and third statements than the first. With the third being the most likely.
I do understand how my first comment could be misunderstood now though.
linking wikipedia is providing an enormous list of sources and summaries
at this point, the uighur issue is the bullshit asymmetry principal: it’s been proven time and time again and anyone asking for “sources” isn’t arguing in good faith: they’re relying on the fact that asking for sources takes thousands of times less energy than countering
so that’s what you get: a massive list of pre-prepared sources
*edit: and if you’d have actually read the article you posted, the UNHRC didn’t vote against the motion because they thought there was nothing to investigate: they voted against it to “avoid alienating china”
Oh I think you registered on the wrong instance
Hexbear is what you’re looking for, this way most of us won’t see your comments.
Yes. It is absolutely shameful propaganda to the most humanist response to terrorism in history: Education and job creation. Very significant prosperity in region. The political designation of genocide is based on some unwed mothers with 4+ children going to UK to say they were now sterile, FFS. The anti-China hateful have no metrics to stop hating China. Only propaganda amplification.
It is absolutely shameful propaganda to the most humanist response to terrorism in history: Education and job creation. Very significant prosperity in region.
America said the same thing when they forced assimilation on the native population after stealing their land.
The political designation of genocide is based on some unwed mothers with 4+ children going to UK to say they were now sterile, FFS.
Again, your only defense to actual evidence is just logical fallacy. You aren’t making any argument in good faith.
The anti-China hateful have no metrics to stop hating China. Only propaganda amplification.
I actually admire a lot about the Chinese government, they’ve done wonders in recent decades to undue nearly a hundred years of foreign interference and imperialism. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to be critical of the things I don’t like about the government.
The simple fact is that they have a fairly well documented history of oppressing non-Han minorities in the country.
i would find amusing if countries retaliate US tariffs by singling out Musk and Trump companies
I think this is the sanest thing that has been said in the last couple of hours. I’m still recovering from the trump speech from yesterday, so not totally sure.
I also am reeling from that speech. I suspect I may have lost some brain cells in that.
Bernie Sanders had a pretty reasonable take on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlrQKv1vN_4
Absolute gold
“I’m sure Americans can sleep soundly knowing that their entire economic future is being steered by the guy who bankrupted four separate casinos.”
This is the best. I’m in the middle of this and it’s scary as hell, but there is some pretty good comedy going on.
That website is satire if I remember correctly.
Yes it is. It’s a Canadian satire site.
I have a better alternative: invest in viable alternatives to driving! expand protected bike lanes, build the damn high speed rail, more trains, trams and bus lines. One more asphalt lane for cars wont solve traffic problems :)
That would work for much of the population that lives within 100 miles of the US border, but there is a lot of rural and green space in Canada, and bikes aren’t great in Canadian winters. Canada needs good car options too.
As of the 2021 census, nearly 6 million people (16% of the total Canadian population) lived in rural areas of Canada.
84% of Canadians live in cities, and that’s where good urban infrastructure is the most needed.
Making car-centric infrastructure mostly electric will help a bit, but not a whole lot.And spending that money to get us cheaper transit in the long term will probably also free up more resources to help the remaining 16%.
Oh, I agree that mass transit wouldn’t really work in areas that aren’t as dense, but we should definitely have those where possible. I didn’t mean to say we don’t need good car options, but we should also have more options besides just cars
Now regarding bikes and winter, I’d say that’s more of an infrastructure problem. Finland also has terrible winter, yet they can bike as usual. You should watch this video if you are interested in this theme: “Why Canadians Can’t Bike in the Winter (but Finnish people can)”
I understand that infrastructure is more important to be able to cycle in the winter, even eclipsing temperature in very cold areas. I live in an area where there is no bicycle infrastructure, I’m actually 100x safer riding my motorcycle well below freezing on the road, than riding my bicycle on a beautiful fall day. And I do, I have gear for it .There are cities though, where temperatures don’t regularly get super cold and people don’t actually have the clothing and gear to cycle in the winter. I would guess in those areas, temperature is more of a factor. In areas where winters are consistently very cold, people already have what they need and are able to cycle if the infrastructure is there.
That’s the thing, with infrastructure you don’t need special gear to ride in winter. You commute on your commuter bike in your regular clothes that you use for everything else. You don’t need to run crazy speeds or jump over crazy hills, you ride you commuter with the same intensity you would have if you just walk.
In cities at least, bikes are just as good as cars in winter. Your city just needs to put as much effort in to building and clearing bike lanes as it does car lanes. Places that give a shit actually plow and salt their bike paths and bike lanes.
In cities at least, bikes are just as good as cars in winte
Your bike has a heater built-in and a way to block out the cold wind and/or rain?
That’s usually what people mean when they mention vehicles in the winter, not just the road being cleared
That’s just a matter of having the proper clothing.
Having ridden bikes in snow (and would be willing to again): yeah, no, they’re a very different experience and to pretend otherwise is to engage in a shocking level of willful ignorance
Walkable cities. Biking infrastructure. Reliable public transit.
Regularless of of what’d going on in the world right now, these would make our cities far better.
Along with more work from home jobs?
Just make it so that commutes count as clocked-in time, and let the market sort it out.
Love this idea; however, bringing Chinese cars is like applying pressure to the wound… fixing public transportation is the long term healing process.
1 - They are not mutually exclusive, bring the Chinese cars now while starting on the long term public transportation projects
2 - The Federal gov can act on the Chinese cars now… public transportation is 100% Provincial purview so an entirely different team needs to address this other priority
Our newly-elected Premier has unfortunately doubled down on giving cars priority with the mandated removal of bike lanes and building new highways (413), even though their own data says that Toronto with be just as congested a few years after building them.
Oh I forgot to mention the tunnel under the 401, which is a massive boondoggle waiting to happen
we have the reverse problem in west of us, removed some car lanes for bike lines causing huge congestion that the bicyclist barely use anyways.
As someone who loves driving cars, I’m completely on board with this. Driving should be optional, and I’d love to leave the car home when I go out partying, or don’t want to worry about leaving my nice ride somewhere sketchy overnight.
This is the way
Bang on!
Replacing nazi cars with slave labor cars is a pretty fucked up idea.
Pretty much anything that you’ve ever owned has been made from the exploitation of some working class somewhere. The clothes you wear. The house you live in. The electronics that you use. The furniture that you own. The very food you eat and drink is often cheap because of an exploited worker somewhere that’s paid pennies on the dollar. Your going to draw the line at a drastically cheaper car that’s leaps and bounds better for the environment than a petrol vehicle? Okay.
Yes.
EVs are definitely better for the environment than ICE powered cads. But they won’t singlehandedly solve climate change, let alone all the harms when places prioritize single occupancy passenger cars at the expense of public transit.
And sure, I’m drawing a line here because cars are one of the precious few industries where you can still buy union-made.
Where do you draw that line?
Smell that? That’s the smell of virtue signaling. Just buy shit and drop the hypocrisy. At least the other guys is being honest.
“I buy from companies who most closely match my ethics” is virtue signaling, now?
We live in a capitalist society, and voting with our wallet is the only vote we get. Not everyone can afford to vote, but why wouldn’t you if you could?
If this is virtue signaling, it’s the most subtle milquetoast virtue signaling ever.
“I buy from companies who most closely match my ethics” is virtue signaling, now?"
That’s well said. And good on you for sticking to your guns. You are 100% right. I think if you can afford to avoid these companies you should.
To be fair, as someone said, it’s not EV that will save the environment. They bring their own problems such as rare earth minerals, heavy metals, lithium fires, heavier cars = move road degradation because of weight, more PM2,5 because of the weight on caoutchouc tires, the difficulty to replace parts when broken because of the more locked design and less right to repair friendly and more.
Are they good for the environment? More than a combustion car, probably. Are they the silver bullet solution? Absolutely not. We are in Canada and we have industries, local, that could benefit from investing into public transportation and trains. That’s true Canadian investment to our companies and solutions to the current environmental crisis.
Cars factories are heavily automated. Manual labor is barely a factor in their cost. China gives state subsidies for EVs and has a far stronger local supply chain.
China isn’t our friend. The whole ‘make it more financially appealing for the world to not war’ is not working. China isn’t influencing the world to be decent and at peace. They’re Putin’s allies and therefore our enemies.
China can buy our housing to rent it back to us, but we can’t buy their EV because other companies won’t make as much profit. Great trickle down.
Yeah China feeling more emboldened to invade Taiwan and talking about wanting to send in troops to gain experience in Ukraine shows they are looking to fill in the power vacuum left by the US and become US 2.0.
More like Russia. 2.0
No, absolutely not like Russia 2.0 The Chinese are taking a completely different approach to the Russians. The fact that people still think the Chinese are stupid is unbelievable…
Tell me more (genuinely)
Without China, Russia would no longer be able to act. The economy etc. would have collapsed completely long ago without China. China therefore has control over Russia and not vice versa. (Even North Korea now has more to say than Putin…) So China is tackling the global battle via cyberwar and economic warfare. It is also a way to overthrow other countries without war and the West is dependent on China. China is not sending its country back a century, but into the future. They are not rushing into a senseless and stupid war, but are waiting until the stupid Russians burn through the capacities worldwide with the Ukraine war. They are also waiting until America splinters completely and possibly takes Europe with it. It is absolutely not comparable with the brainless MeatGrindr bullshit from the Russians.
I’m not saying that China won’t start a war, but they won’t do it as stupidly as the Russians. China is thinking several years ahead. Just future-oriented.
So apart from nuclear weapons, China is much more dangerous for the West
If that’s the case then why are we still trading with China? Why isn’t tiktok banned? Russia is being openly punished and rejected but China, apparently so close with them, are not?
I understood that capitalism, despite it’s flaws is the way the world has decided to prevent wars. If countries are so intertwined financially it can’t be of benefit to either party to war. If China values our business they won’t fuck with us. If Chinese companies and parties own interests in our country they won’t destroy it or even act against us, as aside from anything else we can sanction them by taking this property without any renumeration.
Because we have democratic laws and, as I said, China is not stupid but acts within the law (apart from cyberwarfare). The results of all this can now be seen with Trump, who is completely destroying democratic values. It is also enough to look at the technological difference between China and Russia. China also produces all the measurement while our measurement is also produced there. Underestimating the Chinese or comparing them with Russia is simply unrealistic.
Let’s wait and see the results of Trump policies. In the end, the citizen has the last word when he starts the civil war.
Btw. The tiktok ban showed how loyal the American population is to the Chinese government.
The old American playbook was to ally with some local elites and then use media, secret service and economic support to bring them into power. Military force and hardcore sanctions were a tool used, if that did not work.
Russia prefers to use military force to force other countries into doing what they want.
China seems to work mainly with economic pressure, corruption and secret servcie work to set up favroable local elites. Their media game is not as good as the US, but TikTok is a clear sign that they are working on it. So far hard force is pretty rarer.
To me China looks a lot more like the old US playbook. They know the Russian one is not as good, as they saw European Empires collapse by using it.
Russia does not prefer military force. They do just as much meddling as the USA does and one might even say they do it better.
They’re Putin’s allies
And America isn’t?
Wasn’t, until Trumptler got into power.
Top that with copyrights removal on Tesla tech.
Copyright removal on all Disney products. Role expiry date back to puss them off.
Yeeeesssssss
Or just fix public transit for fucks sake. Evs are a distraction from the problemm
I think we should build them ourselves.
Why not both
I obviously don’t understand the economics of it and I realize that China will always have the upper hand on price but is there a reason every western EV has to be $40,000+? Like surely it’s possible to build a barebones model for less than 30k right - especially if I don’t need or even want touch screens or fancy interior materials or heated seats or anything.
If I specifically don’t want touch screens, what then?
Legally, cars sold in the US have to have a backup cam, so there has to be a screen, so it might as well be a touch screen.
I agree this is dumb and that’s why I drive an old car with nothing but bluetooth
Me too! What is the cost/benefit FOR ME? I understand what it is for the manufacturers but it’s a UX nightmare, especially when you’re trying to drive too.
Western culture is built on delivering value to shareholders first and foremost.
That’s why I snatched up a Bolt before Chevy (temporarily, they say) discontinued the line. I even did upgrade it a little to get heated/cooling front seats and a heated steering wheel plus the extra safety features. $32.5k with a $7.5k rebate from the federal Clean Vehicle Credit. So $25k for a car with a 175-280 mile range. (175ish in winter when the battery is less efficient, 280 in summer).
Of course the IRS fucked up the point of sale rebate when I was purchasing, but it’s finally incoming with my taxes this year.
Higher profit margins.
Europeans get the bulk of cheaper and smaller EVs. Meanwhile in North America, Ford stopped selling sedans. It’s a niche that car makers could fill if they wanted to.
I imagine China is subsidizing the R&D of their EVs while American car companies are trying to recoup those costs
Every major country subsidizes R&D. That’s what federal research grants are all about. The NSF, NIH, etc do exactly that.
Other US subsidies on EVs aren’t specifically restricted to R&D but US companies could apply it to that, if they want.
edit: typo
also many US companies are pocketing those subsidy money to pay the CEOs anyways.
China has been subsidizing EVs since 2010.
Longer than that. China has been promoting battery technology as a strategic initiative since the 90’s.
Definitely related. EVs are relatively new technology and internal knowledge for engineering R&D, materials, and manufacturing infrastructure all have to be spun up. All this, and you need marketing/planning folks to decide on what sort of vehicle will sell the best against their engineering capabilities.
It’s a combination of issues. In no particular order;
- precursor availability: All the stuff that EVs are made of, is made in China. If you want to build EVs it’s easier and cheaper to get all the parts in China than it is in the US
- logistics: China has more modern roads, railroads, ports etc. That makes it much easier to get parts in and finished products out
- government aid: China has prioritized EVs for a long time and has all kinds of policies to encourage EV production
- EV infrastructure: China has more EV charging stations than the US and EU combined
- limited ICE competition: China doesn’t have any big ICE vehicle companies. There are no significant groups in China advocating against EVs
Labor costs don’t seem to be a factor at all. EVs are made in modern factories that are almost completely automated. The biggest part of “precursor availability” is likely batteries. The main innovation in EVs was the batteries. The electric motors, chassis, computers, etc are all secondary to batteries that can safely hold a lot of charge and discharge reliably. China dominates that market too.
How about the rare earth materials as well as much more expensive metals in the motor and electronics construction? An ICE engine is well understood and you can pick up a higher performing aluminum block and head crate motor for ~$13k or so. The higher trim Tesla motors are ~$20k, and they can have up to four motors. That’s a huge difference.
E: y’all downvoting…why? OEM electric motors for cars like a Tesla are expensive AF whereas you can get a relatively inexpensive ICE (~$7k for a base model V8 crate motor). That’s retail, not the manufacturer internal price.
China has more rare earth deposits than the US but that’s a bit misleading. Rare earths show up in trace amounts all over the world. China has them in higher concentrations.
The bigger issue is that China has been the main refiner of rare earths for decades. That means they have all the infrastructure for actually making it available and they’ve developed a bunch of technologies and processes to do it way cheaper and more efficiently than anyone else can.
I don’t know the pricing specifics of EV motors but I have some familiarity with electric motors, in general. The technology hasn’t really changed much in a long time. We’ve have 3 phase motors and hall effect sensors for ages. They’re better than older electric motors but the huge technology leap, that made EVs practical, was the batteries.
No way does an electric motor cost that much.
Have you seen the amount of precision engineering that goes into building a combustion engine? That is ridiculously expensive.
No way does an electric motor cost that much.
Did you check numbers before you posted or did you disagree out of hand with zero thought to it? I didn’t pull these numbers out of my ass.
https://gbtimes.com/how-much-is-a-tesla-motor-replacement/
$10k-$30k, I posted a midrange price. Another site had them as “cheap” as 7k, but either way if you need 2-4 of them it’s not cheap.
That precision engineering has been establishing itself for well over a century, we get the cheaper price thanks to the economy of numbers. piston engines were driven by steam well before ICE. Yes, I am abundantly familiar with ICE engines having built several and in fact have one under assembly in my garage right now. There’s a massive difference between a boring consumer grade crate motor and any purpose-built high-end track motor as far as engineering goes even if the parts are essentially the same.
You seem to be comparing a crate motor with the full cost of replacement of the Tesla motor. Also, is that the motor, or the whole drive unit, which from my understanding includes the differential?
No idea. I equated motor to motor. I assumed that when the price was stated for the electric motor it was for the motor alone, it did not specify motor, transmission unit, controller or management systems.
If you want to compare setups that contain engine and transmission it’s still cheaper on the ICE side. An engine and transmission kit, plus engine controller, can be had for around $15k starting price.
But again, we have to note that only one engine and transmission are required in an ICE car, whereas tesla may require up to four motors. I am also picking modest V8 engines and associated transmissions. You could also pick a 4 cyl Honda engine and transmission for a little over half the cost of the V8 package. A new Honda 1.5l 4 cyl can be had for $2500. Also, again, I am pointing out retail costs. OEM costs will be significantly cheaper.
So yeah…electric motors, installed with or without any transmission parts, are more costly.
Edit: prices for tesla motors did not state it included drive unit, but I am suspicious of the source. I would conservatively place a new OEM motor at 10k retail, single unit, base model.
touch screens are a lot cheaper than buttons because you only need the one. and if one trim level of a car has heated seats, they all do because it’s a lot cheaper to only produce one kind of seat.
car economics are weird.
Rear cameras are required, which means some sort of screen is required. Might as well make it a touch screen so you can cut costs on wiring and installing buttons if you already need one.
Touch screens are actually cheaper than physical buttons as it’s the reason why so many electric cars have them. Most of the cost comes from the batteries so they try to save in other areas.
We should see more physical buttons back in newer electric cars as the batteries get cheaper to mass produce.
No kidding, I didn’t know that. I did some checking and it says replacement batteries are $5-15k! Well silver lining is the price is dropping precipitously:
Jan 26, 2024 - According to the DOE, the cost of a lithium-ion EV battery was 89 percent lower in 2022 than it was in 2008
Replacement batteries are really not a concern with EVs. They last longer than most folks expect and they come with pretty lengthy warranties.
It’s still ridiculous how expensive they are to repair or replace, and for sure that will hit some folks hard, but it really should be quite rare to replace an EV’s battery
My guess is that none of them are at scale to the point where the margins are great. To make the margins acceptable price had to go up.
Nothing is really profitable in auto until the whole production line is operating at full scale.
Yeah that makes sense, I bet you’re right or at least that’s a large part of it.
Reminds me of this video I saw about economies of scale specifically regarding a special part that went into a guitar. The maker could get the material and produce that part pretty cheaply until the automotive industry stopped using that same material. Suddenly they could barely source the material anymore and just had to cancel the part.
That’s crazy but makes sense. Basically benefiting from autos overflow.
deleted as others said the exact same thing below.
Yes it costs more to live in those societies because people are paid more.
Canada has the same incentive to not open the door to Chinese EVs that the US does.
Why would they shoot themselves in the face just to splash some blood on someone else?
Canada doesn’t have the incentives that the Americans have at all. Correct me if I’m wrong. America’s incentive is to protect its own EV industry, Canada doesn’t have an EV industry of its own.
The incentive for the US is the US government can spy on its citizens. China could care less if you drove to planned parenthood last week…The Republicans on the other hand want to burn people at the stake for it.
Elon gets the added bonus of whacking off to people doing unsavory things in his cars.
You’re wrong. Just the nature of of the auto industry makes it a little confusing since the entirety of a car isn’t manufactured in one country. But there are a lot of components for EVs manufactured in Canada. There’s especially a focus on manufacturing batteries for EVs which is the single most important component in an EV. And more plants for battery manufacturing are under construction.
What is the reason btw? Genuinely asking because I dunno
It isn’t that an inexpensive electric vehicle from China is bad, in fact that’s great.
The issue is that the cars are subsidized at such a rate that it goes beyond domestic incentive and into “we’ll just make sure no matter what we can sell for less than the competition” in an effort to drive any competition out of business.
It’s an anticompetitive practice that has significant impacts if allowed unchecked.
This is not meant as a value statement about the west, USA or Canada … as in I’m not saying “China bad when they do it, west good when they do it” because it’s bad when it’s done by whoever does it.
Effectively it’s a lever to weaponize fair trade and that’s antithetical to the idea of fair trade, at least insomuch as the international community tends to agree.
A worthwhile note is also that pretty much all US car manufacturers have dragged their feet doing EVs, excluding Tesla. So naturally US car manufacturers are struggling a lot with the massive costs related to adopting EVs now, and struggle competing with a country that spent this money getting established a good while ago.
The subsidies are still a problem, but the 100% tax is in my view a massive handout to domestic manufacturers that never bothered to try until they were behind. That 100% price increase in Chinese will probably mean high margins on EVs for yet some years before cheap alternatives come along.
It’s a fuck you to European partners also.
Fucking someone over isn’t worth fucking everyone over.
Why does that matter to Canada? They don’t make their own EVs. They have no domestic manufacturers to protect against dumping. Might as well just get as many cheap vehicles as you can, while you can.
Yes but Canada has no EV industry… so, even if it’s just temporarily to provide Canadians with an option while telling American companies to suck it… what’s the problem?
Are we really going to say we don’t to business with China because of anti-competitive practices when we have been doing business with American doing WAY worse all along?
It’s not just US companies harmed.
One also would think more long term and hope for better relations with Canada and USA having more cooperative relations especially as it pertains to an auto market.
Regardless harming your European allies to spite the US isn’t ideal either.
It’s not just US companies harmed.
Who else is harmed in this case?
One also would think more long term and hope for better relations with Canada and USA having more cooperative relations especially as it pertains to an auto market.
Why? this is exactly what we had and Trump destroyed… why would be trust them again? ever?.. even if we go back to a trade agreement, there should be hard guarantees in place to be able to trust the USA again in pretty much anything
Regardless harming your European allies to spite the US isn’t ideal either.
Why would that be the case at all? I am all for opening the Canadian market to European auto makers (very few make it here)… Most people who can afford it never buy American cars anyway as they are fairly low in everything when compared to Asian or European brands.
Why would reducing tariffs on Chinese EVs harm European allies when we already barely allow them into the Canadian market?
thats only from the us standpoint, canada doesnt have thier ev industry, so theres no competition to begin with. Canada doesnt have any EV production capabilities, i dont see how it affects them. sure they are importing cars, theres nothing to compete to, because canada isnt making cars with EV.
I dont think there is a single privacy friendly EV on the market.
If a Canadian company could build and export an EV that wasn’t loaded with invasive sensors and where the data recording and uploading was opt-in (or non existent), loads of US Americans and Europeans would import them from Canada.
I think you can expand that to all cars, not just EVs.
I hope aptera will save us.
Someone’s doing the happy hunny dance…
The argument against Chinese Ev’s is not an economic one.
If some authoritarian state wants to steal from its poorest in society and transfer the wealth to foreign electric car buyers, why is our government trying to win in the race to the bottom?
Billions have been spent on the Canadian EV industry through subsidies, tax cuts and grants. The relative amount of jobs and Canada made goods are pitiful. The real beneficiaries are the foreign auto companies.
We will NEVER have a competitive advantage against China, Japan, US, UK, SK and Germany. Stop trying and put all that money and effort into something we do have a chance at being competitive in.
It’s not about being competitive against Chinese EVs, it’s about preventing China from attacking us economically, politically, and potentially even digitally.
These aren’t just dumb vehicles, they’re running Chinese made software, for a Chinese company, and reporting data back to China.
They’re not just manufactured in China like you may have with other digital devices, with the software control and data residing in more friendly nations.
That matters.
These aren’t just dumb vehicles, they’re running Chinese made software, for a Chinese company, and reporting data back to China.
If your paranoia wins, then dumb EVs are cheaper than FSD. Tesla will be reporting data back to US. These are issues that only arise because you are committed to having a war on China, as bestest idea ever for Canadian prosperity. USA current war on us should be a bigger concern.
Western car companies are not beholden to western governments in the same way that companies in China are. We have laws against government intervention like that here, while China explicitly mandates the opposite.
Sure laws can change, but right now the situation is extremely clear in terms of who we should trust.
Western car companies are not beholden to western governments in the same way that companies in China are.
You innocent child. AI has become a national security imperative, with AI companies devoted to military applications. The most important military application is control over your throughts, just as all media devoted to US supremacy/warmongering/control over your thoughts. American companies are loyal to “national security” orders, and if that means killing you, then they will.
To protect myself here, Israel should finish the job.
I don’t live in the US and I don’t drive an American made car, I’m not worried about the South Korean government forcing Kia to brick my vehicle.
I said “western car companies” not US car companies specifically.
Correlation attacks, China is king of hoovering up data.
Overly dramatic example: you are in the armed forces, you have a TikTok account, you post a bunch of shit that shows you are in the armed forces. You get deployed for some covert fuckabout and are told to leave your phone at home. You turn off your phone, pick up 3 of your buddies in your Chinese EV and drive to the base/airport/sea port. Dozens of people do this and by seeing the pattern China knows that a bunch of armed forces are being told to quietly deploy.
A less dramatic example might be figuring out where politicians are by knowing where their employees are.
You are right, that if US is destined for war on China, then there are clear security risks. It is a horrible destiny that no one in US should think they have the slightest hope of winning, and then thinking it is not actual destiny could be a rational hope.
I’m talking about Canada and not about a war.
During peace times it is not in Canada’s interest for China to know where all our politicians are, it is not in Canada’s interest for China to know where where Canadian military and law enforcement are. It’s not in Canada’s interest for any entity to be able to tell where specific people or groups of people are at any time.
De-spying should not only apply to Chinese cars but all cars and mobile devices.
During peace times it is not in Canada’s interest for China to know where all our politicians are, it is not in Canada’s interest for China to know where where Canadian military and law enforcement are
During peace time, they will not want to assassinate anyone, or worry about soldier movements.
It’s not in Canada’s interest for any entity to be able to tell where specific people or groups of people are at any time.
The US has that power. They spy on allies. Insufficient enthusiasm for the empire can get you JFKd. China can’t reach us as easily.
De-spying should not only apply to Chinese cars but all cars and mobile devices.
Yes. We’d have better chance of putting up firewalls/protections/open source solutions without data collection on Chinese EVs than domestic ones.
It’s not about software or data. It’s about control over the supply chain - cars are essential to our economy and way of life in North America (like it or not). It’s the same reason we protect the milk supply. You don’t want another country to be able to turn it off in a conflict.
We already have Chinese phones, applications, computers and networks.
I don’t believe cars are not a meaningful attack vector relative to the economic benefit. Tiktok is a far larger threat.
The trade disputes related to Meng Wanzhou are nothing in comparison to what the US is doing right now.
I don’t believe cars are not a meaningful attack vector
Considering that EVs are now ranked as the worst offenders for spying on people, just imagine if China was being fed live audio/video + locations of all their customers. They could effectively set up actual surveillance that saturates every populated square meter of the country (including in people’s garages or driveways!) through the Trojan horse of affordable EVs.
We should be cautious.
That said, if China can provide safe and affordable EVs that aren’t connected to the internet… basically a dumb car that runs on batteries… it would be a much better thing for anyone considering a new vehicle.
Personally, I’d rather support Canadian, European, or Japanese auto manufacturers.
Valid. I understand where you’re coming from.
That said, if China can provide safe and affordable EVs that aren’t connected to the internet… basically a dumb car that runs on batteries
That would be ideal. If that was the goal, I’d support requirements for that. But that’s not what we have, we have gigantic tariffs that were implemented because America did the same.
That would be ideal. If that was the goal, I’d support requirements for that. But that’s not what we have, we have gigantic tariffs that were implemented because America did the same.
Tariffs aside, the EU is already making it so cars with fewer screens and more buttons will get a higher safety rating.
That’s a step in the right direction, and hopefully, the requirement for all vehicles to have an “offline mode” will be implemented soon, too.
In case you hadn’t noticed, Chinese devices are frequently banned in Canada, especially for government use.
Chinese gear in telecom networks is either not allowed or being phased out. Chinese cellphones are not allowed for government use. Chinese apps are not allowed on government machines.
I do believe cars are a meaningful attack vector, with enough market penetration the ability to just “turn them off” could cripple the country, and there’s not much point in letting them in if we limit the percentage down to something that would lessen the impact.
I don’t see that happening outside of an outright war with China. I dont think that’s very likely. If you have evidence of them doing stuff like that already I’d be open to changing my mind on the topic.
I think it’s much more likely they’ll just continue buying up our companies like Husky and trying to turn us into an economic puppet state. Which is still better than the stated American alternative of being the 51st state.
They lose that power and risk nationalization of their assets if they go too far. They know that.
Why do you think there wouldn’t be an outright war with China?
They plan on invading Taiwan at some point, and we’ll probably be funding the defence there.
They’ve already got paid at that point, and with the sanctions we’re likely to slap on them we wouldn’t be buying more anyways, so why wouldn’t they just brick all the existing cars in retaliation? or use it as a threat to try to keep us from retaliating?
They’ve been planning on invading Taiwan for nearly a decade.
That conflict overall is as old as the CCP. The reason it ended was the US threatening to step in: https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_memoranda/RM4900.html
China holds Trillions in foreign assets in the West, they’d be kissing that all goodbye.
I’d bet on Russia getting invaded by China far sooner than Taiwan. In fact, either than the Sino-Vietnam war, the war with the Soviets is their most recent war.
Russia simply has less allies and has more of what China needs and wants, fresh water, uncontested ports and oil among many other things. They also have a (recent) historic claim to Outer Manchuria too.
Even Russia knows this:
https://www.ft.com/content/758ff1ca-6ac1-4188-9b61-c514638447b1
As the war with Ukraine grinds soviet stockpiles down, Russia gets weaker and weaker. Taiwan on the other hand has a lot of allies and is very defensible.
Chinese philosophy and military doctrine is clear. The threats to Taiwan escalate while railways are being made towards the Russian Far East ‘for trade’.
“All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.”
“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Invading Taiwan might be the most obvious, telegraphed invasion in history.
That is the rationale, if Trump destroys our auto industry, to get better value cars for net prosperity of Canadians even if we lose our very highly subsidized auto industry.
The future (present in China) of car manufacturing is robotics, and EVs require fewer parts that Canadians have specialized in. Still, Canadian resources and manufacturing can help build EVs cheaply here, and worth investing or nationalizing legacy car plants to help bring construction jobs and value to Canadians.
That feels like “robbing Peter to pay Paul”. We don’t want to be dependent on either nationalist autocracy.
