The key issue for me is the right of a people to self determination.
The people who live in the eastern parts of Ukraine are overwhelming Russian speaking and identify as ethnically Russian. They voted three times in various ways for some form of preserving their cultural rights, only to have their expression of Democratic will met with violent militias, shelling, and other violence, and then finally voted once again to secede from Ukraine, largely motivated by the extreme hostility from right wing Ukrainian nationalists who were banning the use of Russian, imposing assimilationist education policies, banning political parties that represented the people there, and even banning the free exercise of religion if that religious practice looked to the Russian Orthodox Church for leadership.
The principle of the self determination of a people to choose their own government demands respect and Ukraine has no right to impose their will on a population that doesn’t want it.
You should look at what the people who actually live there, in the east not just those in Kyiv, have been saying for a decade. They don’t want to be part of Ukraine anymore and it’s because of the extreme violence Ukraine has inflicted upon them since 2014.
Which referendums are you referring to and does any country besides Russia or North Korea accept the results? Just an FYI elections in Russia itself are not free from corruption in any sense of the word. But I’m sure you take putin’s word when he says their fair Lol 2014 is when Russian backed separatists began working in Ukraine, Russia has always been the aggressor and could’ve stopped the violence whenever they choose.
Which referendums are you referring to and does any country besides Russia or North Korea accept the results?
literally the consent “isn’t there somebody you forgot to ask?” meme but with America
but this is also a very funny way of imagining how self-determination and independence movements work a lot of the time. Imagine a world where a newfound country breaks free from an existing one and then that newfound country sees that 90% of the UN, including the country they just broke free from, doesn’t recognize them for doing that and they’re just like “Well, shucks. I guess we’re going back and re-joining the country again, because these people aren’t ready to accept us yet!”
That’s all on you for misunderstanding how being a country works. It doesn’t matter that you hold elections but that you hold the monopoly of violence over the population. That’s what gets you recognition. Color me shocked that you don’t even know how the most rudimentary geopolitics works …
A group that already has a presence in the UN? I was talking about how recognition works for countries. But low and behold that nuance escapes you. It’s not my fault that u & 72 don’t understand how international recognition and civil wars work.
It doesn’t matter that you hold elections but that you hold the monopoly of violence over the population. That’s what gets you recognition.
You’re contradicting yourself you’re contradictinnnggggg yourself hahaha it’s okay to admit you exhausted your line of arguing and can’t defend anything more. Come to the tankie side, it’s not so bad. We’re right all the time.
It’s not my fault you don’t know how occupation works. I’m specifically talking about a separatists Donbas that is able to fend off both Ukraine and Russia assaults could obtain recognition by the international community through securing it’s borders. Of course you intentionally misunderstood what I’m saying at all times and declare victory by being a dumbass
What are you saying? The Ukrainian state held a monopoly of violence over the people of the Donbass and used it regularly since the coup in 2014. These people in turn declared independence in order to free themselves from this violence, but the Ukrainian state wouldn’t have it. The only way to counter violent suppression is with violence. These people know this and it’s why they invited Russian military intervention to their cause.
The Russo-Ukrainian War is an ongoing international conflict between Russia, alongside Russian-backed separatists, and Ukraine, which began in February 2014.
Are you saying they ::gasp:: used violence during a WAR? ThEy UsEd vIolEnCe DuRIng A wAr?!?
This is just copium. Whatever you believe, the result was a fascist Ukranian state that supports literal Nazis shelling civilians. What were they supposed to do, vote harder? Oh right, their voting rights were suppressed and their political parties banned from running in elections. At a certain point, when faced with violent suppression, violence become your only option.
Are you saying they ::gasp:: used violence during a WAR? ThEy UsEd vIolEnCe DuRIng A wAr?!?
You’re the one who brought up violence. I’m simply trying to present the world to you as it is instead of through the filter of liberal propoganda that you so happily slurp up daily. That boot is so deep down your throat, maybe you should start an only fans.
You’re a deplorable waste of bones and organs. When this war is over and there’s a well armed Nazi militia committing pogroms and wreacking havock across Europe, I hope that you’ll reconsider your position.
You are changing the question, since Russia’s violence does make Donbas part of Russia [to follow your logic] anway, but 72 was talking about democratic legitimacy and you damn well know it.
Democratic legitimacy? By internationallly recognizing any group that holds elections & breaks off a country? My good man, that’s a terrible idea. Having a monopoly over violence is just a prerequisite but of course you knew that already since Donbas is occupied until legally resolved via treaty.
Better than murdering them with polonium or putting them away in prison??? What a case of whatttaboutism. Did I ever make the claim that Ukraine was a bastion of democracy? No! your fevered brain is just rattling off talking points that you heard parroted in other threads. All you talking heads do is deflect. I say that Cuz I noticed you never made any attempt to claim that the referendums were legit. Which they weren’t.
What is your proof the referenda were not legit? You’re the one who’s going against the grain here, it’s you who needs to prove your stance. I won’t accept it without evidence.
Why does “they voted for it repeatedly for a decade” not compute for you?
Are you of the opinion that the people in the east want to be part of Ukraine? Because they don’t, not after a decade of being brutalized by far right militias and seeing their cities shelled by the Ukrainian military and being denied the right to speak their language or practice their religion.
When you talk about “Russian backed separatists” you realize those separatists live there don’t you? You know what the word separatist means right?
Ukraine is using military force to deny them their right to self determination and the only reason you want to call the referendum illegitimate is because the people who live there chose the wrong answer.
You don’t value their views at all. They don’t matter to you. Which makes your position immoral and bloodthirsty.
The one where they voted to secede and the multiple elections over the past decade where they voted for political parties that were then banned by the Ukrainian government which is now also refusing to hold constitutionally mandated elections for fear of how they’d vote again.
You didn’t answer my question:
Are you of the opinion that the people in the east want to be part of Ukraine?
I’d say the issue is split between those who want to join and those who want to stay. Your problem is with international law which respects the territorial sovereignty of nations and does not recognize a right of sucession by a group unless their right of internal self determination is compromised. In this case the Ukrainian constitution requires a referendum of all Ukrainian people. Keeping that one mind Here’s a question for you:
Are you of the opinion that the people of chechnia wanted to be a part of Russia? Those guys full on declared independence & had elections in 1991 LMFAO
unless their right of internal self determination is compromised
Oh wait what’s that?
Lmao that’s what happened after the Ukrainian nationalists starting arming Nazi militias and banned their political parties you clown.
Banning their political parties and denying them the right to use their own language or practice their own religion or have their own political representation is called denying them their right to internal self determination.
Since you want to quote laws you should be aware that since parts of the Donbass are occupied by Russia (namely Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts), Ukrainian law does not apply there. The territories, until the referendum was held, fell under UN Occupation Law because it was “actually placed under the authority of the adverse foreign armed forces”(source: https://casebook.icrc.org/a_to_z/glossary/occupation).
The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised. A State’s territory may therefore be partially occupied, in which case the laws and obligations of occupation apply only in the territory that is actually occupied. When a State consents to the presence of foreign troops there is no occupation.
Ukrainian law does not apply to territories under Russian authority.
Your problem is with international law which respects the territorial sovereignty of nations and does not recognize a right of sucession by a group unless their right of internal self determination is compromised. In this case the Ukrainian constitution requires a referendum of all Ukrainian people
So when rightists oppose secession because, while they hate the ethnic Russians who want to leave, they don’t want those ethnic Russians taking the land, etc. with them, we should be moved by this motivation and not consider the right of self-determination compromised?
No! your fevered brain is just rattling off talking points that you heard parroted in other threads.
LMAO you have zero self awareness and its kind of adorable. You aren’t in your liberal echo chamber here and no amount of tantrum throwing is going to make anyone take you seriously.
The key issue for me is the right of a people to self determination.
The people who live in the eastern parts of Ukraine are overwhelming Russian speaking and identify as ethnically Russian. They voted three times in various ways for some form of preserving their cultural rights, only to have their expression of Democratic will met with violent militias, shelling, and other violence, and then finally voted once again to secede from Ukraine, largely motivated by the extreme hostility from right wing Ukrainian nationalists who were banning the use of Russian, imposing assimilationist education policies, banning political parties that represented the people there, and even banning the free exercise of religion if that religious practice looked to the Russian Orthodox Church for leadership.
The principle of the self determination of a people to choose their own government demands respect and Ukraine has no right to impose their will on a population that doesn’t want it.
You should look at what the people who actually live there, in the east not just those in Kyiv, have been saying for a decade. They don’t want to be part of Ukraine anymore and it’s because of the extreme violence Ukraine has inflicted upon them since 2014.
Which referendums are you referring to and does any country besides Russia or North Korea accept the results? Just an FYI elections in Russia itself are not free from corruption in any sense of the word. But I’m sure you take putin’s word when he says their fair Lol 2014 is when Russian backed separatists began working in Ukraine, Russia has always been the aggressor and could’ve stopped the violence whenever they choose.
literally the consent “isn’t there somebody you forgot to ask?” meme but with America
but this is also a very funny way of imagining how self-determination and independence movements work a lot of the time. Imagine a world where a newfound country breaks free from an existing one and then that newfound country sees that 90% of the UN, including the country they just broke free from, doesn’t recognize them for doing that and they’re just like “Well, shucks. I guess we’re going back and re-joining the country again, because these people aren’t ready to accept us yet!”
That’s all on you for misunderstanding how being a country works. It doesn’t matter that you hold elections but that you hold the monopoly of violence over the population. That’s what gets you recognition. Color me shocked that you don’t even know how the most rudimentary geopolitics works …
Who has the monopoly of violence in Luhansk and Donetsk currently…?
A group that already has a presence in the UN? I was talking about how recognition works for countries. But low and behold that nuance escapes you. It’s not my fault that u & 72 don’t understand how international recognition and civil wars work.
You’re contradicting yourself you’re contradictinnnggggg yourself hahaha it’s okay to admit you exhausted your line of arguing and can’t defend anything more. Come to the tankie side, it’s not so bad. We’re right all the time.
It’s not my fault you don’t know how occupation works. I’m specifically talking about a separatists Donbas that is able to fend off both Ukraine and Russia assaults could obtain recognition by the international community through securing it’s borders. Of course you intentionally misunderstood what I’m saying at all times and declare victory by being a dumbass
But Donbass doesn’t want to fight off Russia, they voted to join them, remember?
Your trolling is weak, please do better. You’re entertaining but you need to step up your game.
What are you saying? The Ukrainian state held a monopoly of violence over the people of the Donbass and used it regularly since the coup in 2014. These people in turn declared independence in order to free themselves from this violence, but the Ukrainian state wouldn’t have it. The only way to counter violent suppression is with violence. These people know this and it’s why they invited Russian military intervention to their cause.
It wasn’t a coup it was a revolution.
The Russo-Ukrainian War is an ongoing international conflict between Russia, alongside Russian-backed separatists, and Ukraine, which began in February 2014.
Are you saying they ::gasp:: used violence during a WAR? ThEy UsEd vIolEnCe DuRIng A wAr?!?
This is just copium. Whatever you believe, the result was a fascist Ukranian state that supports literal Nazis shelling civilians. What were they supposed to do, vote harder? Oh right, their voting rights were suppressed and their political parties banned from running in elections. At a certain point, when faced with violent suppression, violence become your only option.
You’re the one who brought up violence. I’m simply trying to present the world to you as it is instead of through the filter of liberal propoganda that you so happily slurp up daily. That boot is so deep down your throat, maybe you should start an only fans.
It’s copium but it’s also provably wrong; the US came out and admitted they got Porochenko elected.
but we don’t keep up with geopolitics apparently, while this dude is stuck in the 70s lol 🤓
Oh 💯. I was just pointing out that the human rights abuses committed by the fascist Ukranian state are unjustifiable regardless.
You’re the ones that think Russia is still a bastion of Marxism. Get a clue, the Soviet Union is gone and it’s not coming back anytime soon.
Removed by mod
You’re a deplorable waste of bones and organs. When this war is over and there’s a well armed Nazi militia committing pogroms and wreacking havock across Europe, I hope that you’ll reconsider your position.
You are changing the question, since Russia’s violence does make Donbas part of Russia [to follow your logic] anway, but 72 was talking about democratic legitimacy and you damn well know it.
Democratic legitimacy? By internationallly recognizing any group that holds elections & breaks off a country? My good man, that’s a terrible idea. Having a monopoly over violence is just a prerequisite but of course you knew that already since Donbas is occupied until legally resolved via treaty.
You think democracy is a terrible idea?
Of course they do. Libs hate democracy
Do you think every group that breaks off should be internationallly recognized dumbass? I like democracy but even the Greeks knew it has problems.
“That referendum and those elections don’t count because the USA said no” truly the voice of democracy and freedom.
I guess it was Putin that forced Zelenskyy to ban the political opposition? Because the damn Putin bots kept voting wrong.
Better than murdering them with polonium or putting them away in prison??? What a case of whatttaboutism. Did I ever make the claim that Ukraine was a bastion of democracy? No! your fevered brain is just rattling off talking points that you heard parroted in other threads. All you talking heads do is deflect. I say that Cuz I noticed you never made any attempt to claim that the referendums were legit. Which they weren’t.
What is your proof the referenda were not legit? You’re the one who’s going against the grain here, it’s you who needs to prove your stance. I won’t accept it without evidence.
Why does “they voted for it repeatedly for a decade” not compute for you?
Are you of the opinion that the people in the east want to be part of Ukraine? Because they don’t, not after a decade of being brutalized by far right militias and seeing their cities shelled by the Ukrainian military and being denied the right to speak their language or practice their religion.
When you talk about “Russian backed separatists” you realize those separatists live there don’t you? You know what the word separatist means right?
Ukraine is using military force to deny them their right to self determination and the only reason you want to call the referendum illegitimate is because the people who live there chose the wrong answer.
You don’t value their views at all. They don’t matter to you. Which makes your position immoral and bloodthirsty.
Imma put this simply since you’ve started repeating yourself ad nauseam. Which 3 specific referendums are you referring to?
The one where they voted to secede and the multiple elections over the past decade where they voted for political parties that were then banned by the Ukrainian government which is now also refusing to hold constitutionally mandated elections for fear of how they’d vote again.
You didn’t answer my question:
Are you of the opinion that the people in the east want to be part of Ukraine?
I’d say the issue is split between those who want to join and those who want to stay. Your problem is with international law which respects the territorial sovereignty of nations and does not recognize a right of sucession by a group unless their right of internal self determination is compromised. In this case the Ukrainian constitution requires a referendum of all Ukrainian people. Keeping that one mind Here’s a question for you:
Are you of the opinion that the people of chechnia wanted to be a part of Russia? Those guys full on declared independence & had elections in 1991 LMFAO
Oh wait what’s that?
Lmao that’s what happened after the Ukrainian nationalists starting arming Nazi militias and banned their political parties you clown.
Banning their political parties and denying them the right to use their own language or practice their own religion or have their own political representation is called denying them their right to internal self determination.
Since you want to quote laws you should be aware that since parts of the Donbass are occupied by Russia (namely Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts), Ukrainian law does not apply there. The territories, until the referendum was held, fell under UN Occupation Law because it was “actually placed under the authority of the adverse foreign armed forces”(source: https://casebook.icrc.org/a_to_z/glossary/occupation).
Ukrainian law does not apply to territories under Russian authority.
So when rightists oppose secession because, while they hate the ethnic Russians who want to leave, they don’t want those ethnic Russians taking the land, etc. with them, we should be moved by this motivation and not consider the right of self-determination compromised?
LMAO you have zero self awareness and its kind of adorable. You aren’t in your liberal echo chamber here and no amount of tantrum throwing is going to make anyone take you seriously.