This whole thread seems to be, primarily, people inventing strawmen and them a comment thread dogpiling them.
We have the “elitist Linux question answerer” and the “average user who is grandmother of 93 years that faints at the sight of terminal text” taking a lot of heat.
Many of stray shots at developers for having the audacity to provide access to the software that they made in their spare time without providing a full UX that compares to IOS.
The “fellow Linux users” who installed Linux 5 years ago, ran into a problem and declared Linux a failed experiment.
The OP isn’t even a good meme. It’s just ragebait.
The people who post these kind of things are not trying to improve the community. They’re concern trolling.
Nobody is “preventing simplification”. Anyone is more than welcome to fire up an IDE, clone a project and simplify whatever they feel like. That’s how the open source software ecosystem works. If you don’t like something then fix it.
You’re not a customer, you’re a community member. Making demands of other people isn’t going to go over well, but it isn’t because people are “elitist”.
I can’t say I’ve ever ran into anyone like this. And the Arch wiki is so newbie friendly, I use it all the time and I don’t even use Arch.
Ive seen a lot of anti-gui sentiment but nothing I can remember enough to link to
I don’t want things to get simpler to the detriment of the power that Linux has. As long as there’s no regression who cares
No, seriously.
This mindset of, “If you don’t like to read pages of documentation to figure out how to do the thing you’re wanting to do, then maybe Linux isn’t for you?” Or the “god. How dare you ask such a STUPID question. You’re using Linux wrong and it probably isn’t for you. Go back to baby’s first OS!” Is the biggest gripe I have about using Linux.
My gripe is “oh, you picked the wrong distro”
I just want my printer to work ffs
I’d put that one on the printer manufacturers. They love making them crappy.
Especially since the manpages are not written to always be comprehensible for end-users, but for developers and professionals. Some tools like tldr can help, however they rarely come preinstalled and aren’t getting the attention they deserve.
So you ever tried support with windows? Go to some crappy community site with people who barely know what they are talking about and try some powershell and regedit crap.
Or go read conflicting Microsoft documentation that always seems to make man files look easy.
Its computers. You read stuff to deal with stuff, the OS is irrelevant.
man this is a good linux meme, its funny and its real criticism of linux. why were all the linux memes shitty for a while there? why are they better now suddenly?
I’ve been hearing about Linux elitists for the last 20 years, and I have yet to meet one. But what I do see is an endless wave of trolling and bad faith arguments about the supposed complexity of Linux.
They treat a wide array of developers, maintainers and enthusiasts as employees of Linux inc, and now they’re grumpy because their imaginary ticket submitted to a nonexisting helpdesk is not being processed.
I have recieved much more help and support from the Linux community than from any other proprietary software helpdesk.
I’ve been hearing about Linux elitists for the last 20 years, and I have yet to meet one.
Post/browse a help forum, it doesn’t take long to find them
YOU SHALL USE tty ON A 4K HDR SCREEN
I use Arch BTW!
In fairness sometimes users don’t want to hear the truth
I too have never seen this. I see a lot of people claiming they are there but don’t seen to find them. Been doing this a long time.
The problem is that the road between creating a piece of software that does something well, and then creating simplification layers on top of it is typically much longer than just “edit a config file” and “here’s a readme”.
You need extra documentation, config gating and workflow, warnings, UI/UX work etc.
I know there are Linux elitists but kind of expecting that much extra work for what is still at it’s core mostly volunteer software seems like it’s own form of elitism.
Absolutely agreed, I find it extremely telling that most people who say that have never personally contributed nor donated. Its ok to have expectations but its not ok to make demands from volunteers, thats why so many devs get burnt out and leave.
The thing is, simple can mean two things, and they are quite often at odds with each other.
It can mean simple to understand, or simple to use.
For example, a piece of software that’s just a binary, a config file and a man page describing the config file and the software’s behavior is generally quite easy to understand. Like, you can fit the idea of the program entirely into your mind and “comprehend” it, though it may not be easy to use for a novice.
By contrast, a piece of software that contains additional layers for easy of use, like a GUI to edit options, may be simple to use, but not necessarily simple to understand. The additional layers add more complexity that does not contribute to core functionality of the program, it can become unclear what gets changed where when you click on buttons, the config file is likely not documented, human readable or editable, or it may even be a completely opaque configuration database (the registry), … So making the software more simple to use, often makes it harder to comprehend.
I, and I think many other nerds, like software that is simple in the “comprehensible” sense, we want to be able to wrap our head around it completely and we don’t mind putting in a little bit of effort to achieve that comprehension, whereas other people prefer to hit the ground running.
luckily people seem to be becoming better with this.
linux is also becoming better at being user friendly.
Hey, I installed Arch btw with Hyprland and I gotta say, the docs are super newbie-friendly. No problems on my end.
The Arch Wiki is so nice
There was a long time when a casual user would have been better off on Windows, but I don’t think that’s true anymore, at least not on every distro.
Just as you can use Windows for years and never need Group Policy or Regedit, you can do Linux just the same without terminal.
This is the area where I feel Linux has come the farthest since I became interested in it.
Here’s the thing that a lot of long-term linux users don’t seem to understand: If it involves typing out a command in a terminal, or editing a configuration text file, 99% of casual users are already out. It doesn’t matter if they just copy-paste a command or have change a single number in a text file, they literally don’t even want to try, they consider that “too complicated”.
And yet I had to edit a config.json file for a program to run on my friend’s w11 pc yesterday, interesting…
I mean, you’re right, he was too dumb to do it, but also that was on windows.
Users copying and pasting random command line code from the Internet should be fine
It is how every community support page works.
For windows. Poweshell that regedit it will fix everything.
Had to do this recently for a borked nvidia driver on windows. Welcome to computers!
and that’s why catering to casuals is a loosing game that shouldn’t be bothered with.
Gee, I wonder why Linux only has 2% market share?
Loosing what? A volley of arrows? I don’t generally care about small typos like this, but it’s always fun to be the reason an elitist prick is losing at elitism.
loosing the terminal and RTFM at the newcomers.
~When in doubt double down~
Except Windows does cater to it, and despite Linux’ supposed superiority it is still by far the dominant desktop OS.
I just have never had a Linux system that didn’t require some sort of terminal work to fix the occasional bug. A couple of updates ago Fedora left me with conflicting packages that needed the terminal to straighten out.
If you are using Linux you should learn terminal basics. The terminal is a very powerful tool that can be useful if you learn it. That doesn’t mean you need to use it all the time but it is nice to have in some cases.
To configure most suckless tools you need to… recompile them. The readme says:
Because dwm is customized through editing its source code, it’s pointless to make binary packages of it. This keeps its userbase small and elitist. No novices asking stupid questions.
But if you are trying to compile suckless tools, you are already in too deep.
Acting like this is some impossible task is a bit of a stretch. It’s 2 commands.
Those dudes are lost in the sauce. Nobody should be using big endian these days
Wow. Just wow. What a bunch of utter darlings. Just let them stew in their own idiocy.
Edit: To clarify, I mean the people who wrote this readme.
You need to edit a C header file used as a config file, and run make and use the resulting executable file. That hardly keeps out anyone.
At the same time DWM is very convenient, and so was WMII.
I know how to compile my own software, but I’m not gonna fucking do it. I’ll leave a comment where I can calling the devs lazy assholes (because they are) and move on with life, as will many others
Because that’s unnecessary elitism, and it’s gross. Also, 1 step of extra work is bullshit and wastes human life for no fuckin reason
If you’ve seen suckless tools, the whole point is that they are rudimentary. DWM is one header file and one source code file of ~2k lines.
It’s not lazy because having a config file wouldn’t add anything to using those things, and it’s not elitism or gross because it’s not hard for those who understand why’d they use suckless tools at all. It also contributes to atmosphere.
FFS, please stop trying to press other people to do things your way, that’s what’s gross.
That keeps out 90% of the population. Do not underestimate how complex that is to people who aren’t tech-savvy and who are used to “it just works”.
Something having an X-Wing pic keeps out a lot of people too, cause not everyone likes Star Wars. What’s your point?
A preference for digital media and requiring someone to edit a file then recompile the project are two different things entirely. I don’t care for star wars and wouldn’t care what images they had from those movies, but even though I’m a dev and absolutely could build the source if needed. I’m quite likely not going to care enough to do that. A user that has never messed with source code is likely not going to be comfortable doing all that.
You gotta remember that your average user isn’t a dev. They aren’t someone who’s used to modifying configs to set something up. They’re more like your grandmother who isn’t even comfortable looking into the settings app on their phone.
To remain polite, I’ll note that this subject has nothing to do with “your average user” or anything else connected to selling something useless to somebody who doesn’t care. All this grandma and average user and other talk is absolutely out of place about tools never intended to be sold on a market or be used by everyone. You are not required to use suckless tools in the first place.
I don’t find it difficult, and have enjoyed sxmo on the PinePhone. I understand the suckless approach, but I do have to admit that many people that I know, even tech-savvy ones, probably would not want to rebuild to configure something.
probably would not want to rebuild to configure something.
It builds in a second. About DWM. It’s 2k lines of C code, all they do is basic functionality. It’s not some cumbersome process of setting up an environment, and then looking at running lines of compiler output as if you were some fscking Neo installing Gentoo.
The biggest barrier to widespread adoption is the portion of the toxic parts of the general community. You know who they are, you see them all the time. They exist across all distros, and they seem to go out of their way to make the experience as miserable as possible when new users are asking simple questions.
They often are some of the first people new users interact with when needing help transitioning over. They seek out those beginner questions to act superior, and just turn the average user off to the point they decide to never try it again.
Without strong moderation to reduce that dipshit commentary, the Linux community will always be working against mainstream adoption.
Documentation has gotten worse too. Veronica Explains discussed this issue in one of their videos. If you look at some good examples of documentation like the Commodore 64 manual, it explains concepts to an audience unfamiliar with computers in a way that’s easy to understand. Lots of modern software doesn’t have docs like this anymore. Then, on top of that, you have the condescending users in help forums.
Discovered Veronica recently… ❤
The biggest barrier to widespread adoption is the portion of the toxic parts of the general community.
You should be careful with that. Because what exactly are those toxic parts, when deciding upon strategy of fighting against them, might be understood differently.
That’s why most elitists on Linux spaces don’t know WTF they are talking about, but the elitists who deed have been pressed out earlier.
Also I really don’t see any problem with pointing someone to a place in a well-written manual. After answering a few simple questions, of course, and seeing that they don’t understand hints that all this is documented specifically to avoid annoying other people.
Agreed. I wish moderators would ban those people from linux communities and more users would report their elitist behaviour. It’s really annoying to ask a question and get belittled for having the audacity of being ignorant.
I understand these people lack power elsewhere in their lives and want to be powerful where they believe themselves to be experts, but it’s a real pity they express it with a complete lack of empathy. If you don’t want to help, don’t say anything. Let somebody who does want to help nicely do the helping.
It’s a sadly entrenched part of the culture. Literally 30 years ago the joke was “if you ask a question in a linux forum you get a bunch of shitheads screaming rtfm. But phrase it as a complaint about linux not doing something windows can, and they will fall over themselves with detailed instructions to prove you wrong”
I understand these people lack power elsewhere in their lives and want to be powerful where they believe themselves to be experts, but it’s a real pity they express it with a complete lack of empathy.
You seem bitter.
There are two kinds of Linux elitists - 1) those who know nothing, but have recently discovered Unices and think they are all-powerful and there’s the right way to go and simple solutions and everything is clear, and the future is bright, 2) those who are tired to rephrase the manuals and want newcomers to sometimes think why they don’t expect Russinovitch-level knowledge of Windows internals from other normal usual Windows users, but with Linux every stupid thing they want to do should be baby-fed to them down to that deep level.
I really hate the first kind, it’s the type who think making yet another “nice wallpapers” Ubuntu-based distribution makes them cooler than me, or that Wayland is already good enough for everything and my arguments that there’s no FVWM under Wayland should be disproved by myself doing my own google search, and so on.
The second kind is normal for every area of human existence. You don’t have to know everything, but also nobody owes you accepting you as equal to those who do, or your opinion, and nobody owes you the benefits of knowledge, and nobody owes you making things work the exact way you want.
TLDR - community members are as valuable as their contributions. If someone’s contribution is reposting Nixie Pixel videos (or whatever is their alternative now), then no matter how “not elitist and nice” they are, they are not very useful compared to those with knowledge. But if someone’s being elitist without any knowledge (as is typical among Arch Linux users), then maybe they are even less valuable.
As a third party, I feel I have to contend this.
“Nobody owes you accepting you as equal” is also a form of dangerous elitism. Linux is built on the foundation of cooperation and mutual aid, and I don’t think it’s the right place to figure out who is more or less “valuable”.
Someone who lacks some of the technical know-how of Linux might be useful to the community as a Linux advocate, or as someone with good ideas on user-friendly design, or something else entirely that can still be useful.
Besides, if we ever hope for “the year of Linux desktop” to be a real thing, we have to be inviting. Yes, most PC users are not technical specialists. Yes, they will have dumb and silly questions. Yes, many of such quesrions have already been answered before, and yes, they could have searched better.
But such is life. Maybe we have time and will for this, but most people don’t. If we want for all our favorite programs and games to finally become Linux native, if we want to ensure Linux experience becomes smooth, if we don’t want to be seen as a community of red-eyed nerds, we need all those people in. And there’s no detriment to this greater than constant infighting and elitism, than forcing people to bury down the wikis instead of providing useful support, and so on. People will just…leave back for Windows, and that’s it. Poof, one less potential supporter in an uphill battle to make Linux mainstream.
Now, I know how frustrating it may be to answer same questions again and again, in your free time, getting nothing for it. I understand it. But we shouldn’t let frustration break the bonds that make it all work. If you don’t feel like answering that same question, just…don’t. That will be enough. Someone else will get them up to speed.
Linux is built on the foundation of cooperation and mutual aid
It’s very dangerous to make casual users and activists and someone like me equal to people doing actual work.
As demonstrated by RedHat-fed activists abusing that equality again and again, making “the community” appear what RedHat wants it to be.
Besides, if we ever hope for “the year of Linux desktop” to be a real thing, we have to be inviting.
You know who’s not being inviting? Microsoft and Apple. The former just informs you that the PCs you can buy come with Windows that version, the latter just shows how damn fscking important and rich you’ll look if you buy their stuff.
The problems are all technical (with “user-friendliness” and “just works” movement as it exists contributing to them and not solving them), if they didn’t exist, nobody would care that the community is grumpy.
Yes, they will have dumb and silly questions. Yes, many of such quesrions have already been answered before, and yes, they could have searched better.
It’s fine to be dumb and ask questions, but with Unix-likes it’s somehow common that newbies first ask for advice, then get it, then react with “that’s dumb, should have been done like in Windows” and that tends to irritate people. And sometimes they want to do things the hard way, but blame the system for them lacking knowledge to do that.
If we want for all our favorite programs and games to finally become Linux native, if we want to ensure Linux experience becomes smooth, if we don’t want to be seen as a community of red-eyed nerds, we need all those people in.
Something is wrong. Amateur radio and in general knowing stuff about radio being associated with a “community of red-eyed nerds” was a fact, but never prevented people from using radio in the 90s and 80s. Most people can’t do electric design for their apartment, yet they use electricity.
And there’s no detriment to this greater than constant infighting and elitism, than forcing people to bury down the wikis instead of providing useful support, and so on.
So why don’t BSDs have that problem?
That’s a rhetorical question, because in BSDs they don’t slap layers of layers of tools intended to make things “easier” and parallel ways to do the same. Linux user-friendliness movement is doomed in the way that it’s not aimed at making kernel interfaces and basic tooling simpler, it aims at making graphical and scripted slap-ons that make things kinda work. All with different logic, taking the nerves out of newbies, and at the same time those newbies can’t exactly tell what’s wrong.
And infighting and elitism are because it’s hard for everyone to admit they are all wrong, all sides. The “elitist” side, because yep, newbies shouldn’t struggle with setting up sound where in BSDs that’s kinda easy, for example. The “newbie-friendly” side, because they are focusing on the wrong thing.
The development process is the problem. Both with the kernel and the userland and with major DEs.
Wrt your second kind:
I see a question i’m tired of answering i just don’t fucking reply to the post.
Try it. Marvellous stuff.
Do you follow the same principle when seeing anti-vaxxer posts en masse? Or any other fillers?
I usually answer a few questions with advice and then leave, when the op genuinely just uses other people as ChatGPT. But I understand those who start making jokes.
No, because they’re not comparable.
To be honest i tend to answer a lot of questions because we’ve all been there, and professionally i spend a lot of time making sure people understand things they did not previously understand.
But if i’m on a comm and someone asks something i cannot be arsed answering…i just don’t answer it. Simple.
But I’ve never met anyone like this. Do they exist?
They are literally in this thread here.
Git gud n00b!
/s, of course.
I’ve come across this kind of response a few times on here and elsewhere, but I think it’s nowhere near as prevalent as it’s sometimes made out to be.
Simplification is kind of vague
Just let the user decide
Yeah they probably mean easy. And probably easy for me, or what I already know.
That said, one of the complaints I commonly hear about Gnome is that it’s simplified to the point of being hard to use. So again, simplification is probably not what they mean.
