Former German Chancellor Angela Merkel writes in her memoir, Freedom: Memoirs 1954 - 2021, that Russian leader Vladimir Putin planned his invasion of Ukraine after her resignation in order to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO.
I see where you are coming from, but I think this is not comparable.
Imagine if russia invaded Germany. Took over Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (renaming it to Putlergrad oblast), banned German and forced everyone to speak russian and get russian citizenship. In the mean-time Ukraine and Poland would build a pipeline to the newly annexed Putlergrad oblast. How would you feel then?
False equivalence. The pipeline did not go to what I presume would be Crimea in this example. Either way, I would not bomb Poland’s or Ukraine’s pipeline, especially after it was shut down anyway and would’ve easily been solved through politics rather than terrorist like actions - especially considering that Germany is one of Ukraine’s biggest contributors. If Germany was somehow taken over by the AfD or whatever, then fine, bomb away, because at that point you’d have a hostile and Russia aligned government anyway. If you want to join the West, the EU, then you’d have to be better than Russia, not act like them.
So you would be OK with Ukraine and Poland building a Russian pipeline if didn’t go directly to the newly annexed Putlergrad oblast? If the pipeline went to Austria or Czechia following the annexation of Putlergrad oblast, would this fundamentally change how you would view Ukraine/Poland’s involvement in the construction of the said pipeline?
I am not necessarily arguing you’re wrong or trying to convince you of anything. I am just trying to show you how it looks from the other side.
You’re missing the point. None of this is any sort of excuse to commit acts of war against one of your largest allies, let alone one you want to join. I did not agree with the building of NS back then either, I always thought it was a stupid thing to do. But ultimately, whether it was used or not, it was still part of EU infrastructure and Ukraine had zero rights to just blow it up.
Would you argue it is okay to execute or torture Russian POWs too, just because Russia does the same? That it is okay to annex your neighbors? Would it okay for Ukraine to attack Moldova and declare it their territory? You can’t claim to have the moral high ground and wanting to join a more civilized world by acting this way.
No I don’t support torturing russian POWs. I agree with you that bombing NS was a bad idea. I disagree with you that it was “EU infrastructure”, it was owned by the russians I believe and Germany explicitly told other EU members to “bugger off” with their concerns.
What bothers me is your moralizing attitude. The last two German leader were some of the biggest enablers of russian genocidal imperialism in the last ~30 years. There is nothing to discuss with Schroeder. Merkel as a bit sneaky. Nominally she said she opposed it, but all her actions de facto always supported russian imperialism.
And then you come along saying “Poland and Ukraine” shouldn’t be in the EU because they don’t uphold moral standards. You don’t see how this could be seen as hypocritical!?
I’m not sure what your point about Schröder and Merkel is, I don’t support them, I don’t like them, I have frequently called them out on their bullshit politics.
And you still miss the point, even though I clearly stated it already. I am of this opinion because they did not recognize Germany’s sovereignty and chose to commit an act of war against an ally. Two things that Russia and Nazi Germany did to Ukraine and Poland btw. You try to justify Ukraine’s aggression towards Germany by the same bullshit arguments that Russia uses to attack Ukraine, not respecting their right of sovereignty, that they are not allowed to make their own decisions, like joining NATO for example. In the West, disagreements like this are supposed to be solved through politics and diplomacy, not through hostilities.
Of course I have. I never voted for them, nor agreed with them. So why are you telling me I have no right to not just tell them off, but also other’s who do the wrong thing?
Because you were saying that “Poland and Ukraine are not ready for EU”, yet you don’t take the same maximalist, hyper critical attitude to the Germany leadership.
I see where you are coming from, but I think this is not comparable.
Imagine if russia invaded Germany. Took over Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (renaming it to Putlergrad oblast), banned German and forced everyone to speak russian and get russian citizenship. In the mean-time Ukraine and Poland would build a pipeline to the newly annexed Putlergrad oblast. How would you feel then?
False equivalence. The pipeline did not go to what I presume would be Crimea in this example. Either way, I would not bomb Poland’s or Ukraine’s pipeline, especially after it was shut down anyway and would’ve easily been solved through politics rather than terrorist like actions - especially considering that Germany is one of Ukraine’s biggest contributors. If Germany was somehow taken over by the AfD or whatever, then fine, bomb away, because at that point you’d have a hostile and Russia aligned government anyway. If you want to join the West, the EU, then you’d have to be better than Russia, not act like them.
So you would be OK with Ukraine and Poland building a Russian pipeline if didn’t go directly to the newly annexed Putlergrad oblast? If the pipeline went to Austria or Czechia following the annexation of Putlergrad oblast, would this fundamentally change how you would view Ukraine/Poland’s involvement in the construction of the said pipeline?
I am not necessarily arguing you’re wrong or trying to convince you of anything. I am just trying to show you how it looks from the other side.
You’re missing the point. None of this is any sort of excuse to commit acts of war against one of your largest allies, let alone one you want to join. I did not agree with the building of NS back then either, I always thought it was a stupid thing to do. But ultimately, whether it was used or not, it was still part of EU infrastructure and Ukraine had zero rights to just blow it up.
Would you argue it is okay to execute or torture Russian POWs too, just because Russia does the same? That it is okay to annex your neighbors? Would it okay for Ukraine to attack Moldova and declare it their territory? You can’t claim to have the moral high ground and wanting to join a more civilized world by acting this way.
No I don’t support torturing russian POWs. I agree with you that bombing NS was a bad idea. I disagree with you that it was “EU infrastructure”, it was owned by the russians I believe and Germany explicitly told other EU members to “bugger off” with their concerns.
What bothers me is your moralizing attitude. The last two German leader were some of the biggest enablers of russian genocidal imperialism in the last ~30 years. There is nothing to discuss with Schroeder. Merkel as a bit sneaky. Nominally she said she opposed it, but all her actions de facto always supported russian imperialism.
And then you come along saying “Poland and Ukraine” shouldn’t be in the EU because they don’t uphold moral standards. You don’t see how this could be seen as hypocritical!?
I’m not sure what your point about Schröder and Merkel is, I don’t support them, I don’t like them, I have frequently called them out on their bullshit politics.
And you still miss the point, even though I clearly stated it already. I am of this opinion because they did not recognize Germany’s sovereignty and chose to commit an act of war against an ally. Two things that Russia and Nazi Germany did to Ukraine and Poland btw. You try to justify Ukraine’s aggression towards Germany by the same bullshit arguments that Russia uses to attack Ukraine, not respecting their right of sovereignty, that they are not allowed to make their own decisions, like joining NATO for example. In the West, disagreements like this are supposed to be solved through politics and diplomacy, not through hostilities.
Did I not say bombing NS was a mistake?
I am just pointing out you have no right to pretend to be noble when you’re own leadership de defacto supported and enabled russian imperialism.
What exactly do you want me to say?
Of course I have. I never voted for them, nor agreed with them. So why are you telling me I have no right to not just tell them off, but also other’s who do the wrong thing?
Because you were saying that “Poland and Ukraine are not ready for EU”, yet you don’t take the same maximalist, hyper critical attitude to the Germany leadership.