As a Jew who fled the USSR in the 1980s, I fully co-sign Norman Finklestein‘s (a Jewish intellectual and scholar on the subject who lost his family to the Nazi holocaust) assessment that Israel is a sick society.
In October, 58% Israelis polled said that Israel is using too little firepower in Gaza.
In December, they were polled and asked to what extent should Israel take into account the suffering of the Palestinian civilian population. Over 80% said to a little extent.
So why pretend that 100% of Israelis have the same opinion? It’s just bigotry. Just because Israel is committing a genocide and even if the majority of Israelis agree with that genocide, it’s simple bigotry to suggest that every Israeli agrees with the genocide.
And if you’re going to just piss away internal opposition as if it doesn’t exist, you’re pissing away hope.
I never said every. You’re burying your head in the sand about what Israel has turned into. And don’t lecture me on Israel like you have any fucking skin in the game. My grandfather was Israeli. I’m a Jewish refugee in the US. It’s not bigotry to factually point out how absolutely atrocious the views of the majority of Israelis are. And how rooted in bigotry it is.
I think you have an issue with parsing words on a screen. Nowhere in what I wrote did I say every. I said Israel as a whole would look for every opportunity to level Gaza and displace the West Bank. Israelis are not in the streets protesting the IDF ripping up roads of Palestinian cities in the West Bank. They’re not protesting because there are 40k dead Palestinians (possibly as high as 186k which around 8% of the population). They’re protesting dead hostages.
Yes, again, that’s how this conversation thread started. You came in later. The subject under discussion was the idea that Israeli approval of genocide was unanimous.
Dude. I have a top level comment. I wasn’t responding to anyone. I responded to the article into which you read another conversation in the post. That’s on you not me.
That’s not the implication tho. The implication is that, similar to nazi Germany, a significant portion of their population has wanton care about the carrying-out of genocide. It doesn’t really matter that “not every” German was a nazi when the society still carried out the genocide of almost 12 million people, more than half of which were jews.
I can’t discount that there are plenty of Israeli bigots who would love to see Palestine wiped out, sure. But let’s not pretend they’re a hive mind. And maybe not tar the people doing this with the same brush as the ones rioting over rapists being imprisoned.
“Without the return of the hostages we will not be able to end the war, we will not be able to rehabilitate ourselves as a society,” Ron Tomer, president of the Manufacturers’ Association of Israel. Te me, “Rehabilitation” implies a level of dissent with Netanyahu’s actions.
I mean, I see what you are saying, but that is pretty rhetorically light. I can see this as maybe the start of something, but I think what we’re seeing out of Israel warrants a more focused and directed conversation.
They are protesting the retrieval of the hostages; not the genocide of the Gazan people. As far as I know, there are almost no voices in Israel speaking out against the genocide of the Gazan people.
The protests came as the White House said that national security adviser Jake Sullivan held a virtual meeting with families of U.S. hostages held by Hamas in Gaza and ahead of Israeli labor union Histadrut calling a general strike for Monday to protest the Netanyahu government and demand an immediate hostage-release and ceasefire deal.
Yes, I know what triggered them. What do you think they want Netanyahu to do? Kill even more Palestinians? Is that what you think they’re calling for here? Bomb harder?
Because they’re literally calling for the opposite. Isn’t that a good thing?
If every hostage was returned, Israel would be looking for every opportunity to level Gaza and further displace Palestinians in the West Bank.
and they are right.
You said:
But let’s not pretend they’re a hive mind.
I pointed out that I’ve seen there are no sources I’ve seen to the contrary coming out of Israel. Everything I’ve seen to the contrary (sources which would make the argument that Israel should not be engaging in genocide, agreeing with @[email protected] 's point ) has been coming from diaspora sources, not sources within Israel.
You then responded with:
just read the headline of the post
But the headline of the article does not make that point, and neither does the article. In fact, its another unit of evidence to suggest there is almost no will to stop the genocide of the Gazan people coming from within Israel. The word genocide occurs no where in the article. There is no mention of forced removal. There is no mention of ethnic cleansing. These protests clearly have nothing to do with the ongoing genocide of the Gazan people and are solely focused on “getting the hostages back”. If there are other sources or people that can speak for the protests that say other wise, I’d love to find them. I’ve not found anyone in Israel willing to call what the Israeli government is doing a genocide. Dissent in Israel wants the hostages back, but they don’t seem to give a shit about the continuing genocide of the Gazan people.
If you think that these protest have anything to do with stopping the war or stopping the genocide, its yourself who has gaslit you.
If you want to believe this, its on you to show us it. The entire thread obviously knows much more about whats going on in Israel and all we’ve gotten from you is your projection of how you wish things were.
If this opposition to the Israeli led genocide exists within Israel show us.
You are making a claim for the existence of a thing. No one else made that claim. We are asking for evidence of that claim. I’ve looked for evidence. I am not finding any evidence of a “don’t genocide the Gazans” movement within Israel. I can find evidence outside of Israel.
Funny how you left out the whole Jewish diaspora part this time like you said before. Because you absolutely suggested that people like me are Israelis or even have some sort of opinion about Israel that should be weighted higher than any other non-Israeli.
I want to make this absolutely clear to you:
I am a Jew.
I am not an Israeli.
I have no affiliation to Israel.
I have no Israeli relatives.
I have never been and do not plan to go.
I feel absolutely no allegiance or kinship or anything else to Israel and never have.
I was born in Indiana.
I have far more in common with a Palestinian-American born in Omaha than I do a Jewish Israeli born in Tel Aviv.
Therefore: my stance on Israeli genocide is of equal weight to yours.
So stop bringing up non-Israeli Jews as if they are of specific relevance to this issue.
You are asking people to support your claim that there is an extant anti-genocide movement within Israel. You’ve done it repeatedly throughout this entire post.
YOU are making a claim and I’m asking for your evidence.
And I am telling you that I have no reason to give anything to someone who thinks about me and other non-Israeli Jews in such a bigoted way no matter how many times they ask.
Sorry, you lost that when you decided I have dual loyalties.
You cannot assume the people protesting here are the same as the people in that riot. That is not fair to them.
As a Jew who fled the USSR in the 1980s, I fully co-sign Norman Finklestein‘s (a Jewish intellectual and scholar on the subject who lost his family to the Nazi holocaust) assessment that Israel is a sick society.
In October, 58% Israelis polled said that Israel is using too little firepower in Gaza.
In December, they were polled and asked to what extent should Israel take into account the suffering of the Palestinian civilian population. Over 80% said to a little extent.
https://truthout.org/articles/polls-show-broad-support-in-israel-for-gazas-destruction-and-starvation/
Okay, but 80% is not 100%.
So why pretend that 100% of Israelis have the same opinion? It’s just bigotry. Just because Israel is committing a genocide and even if the majority of Israelis agree with that genocide, it’s simple bigotry to suggest that every Israeli agrees with the genocide.
And if you’re going to just piss away internal opposition as if it doesn’t exist, you’re pissing away hope.
I never said every. You’re burying your head in the sand about what Israel has turned into. And don’t lecture me on Israel like you have any fucking skin in the game. My grandfather was Israeli. I’m a Jewish refugee in the US. It’s not bigotry to factually point out how absolutely atrocious the views of the majority of Israelis are. And how rooted in bigotry it is.
That’s how this whole conversation thread started. With the implication that there are no Israelis who are against genocide.
That is the issue.
That people internally protesting this are just being treated like they don’t exist.
If that wasn’t what you were talking about, I’m sorry, but that is what was being discussed.
I think you have an issue with parsing words on a screen. Nowhere in what I wrote did I say every. I said Israel as a whole would look for every opportunity to level Gaza and displace the West Bank. Israelis are not in the streets protesting the IDF ripping up roads of Palestinian cities in the West Bank. They’re not protesting because there are 40k dead Palestinians (possibly as high as 186k which around 8% of the population). They’re protesting dead hostages.
Yes, again, that’s how this conversation thread started. You came in later. The subject under discussion was the idea that Israeli approval of genocide was unanimous.
Dude. I have a top level comment. I wasn’t responding to anyone. I responded to the article into which you read another conversation in the post. That’s on you not me.
Sorry, you’re right. You did write the top level comment. Which said this:
That sure makes it sound like it was unanimous to me. That’s exactly why I said it was unfair to begin with.
That’s not the implication tho. The implication is that, similar to nazi Germany, a significant portion of their population has wanton care about the carrying-out of genocide. It doesn’t really matter that “not every” German was a nazi when the society still carried out the genocide of almost 12 million people, more than half of which were jews.
While I agree with you, I can’t entirely discount /u/oakey66. History has proved it for decades.
I can’t discount that there are plenty of Israeli bigots who would love to see Palestine wiped out, sure. But let’s not pretend they’re a hive mind. And maybe not tar the people doing this with the same brush as the ones rioting over rapists being imprisoned.
If there are dissenting voices in Israel they need to speak up. And if voices within Israel are speaking up they need to be amplified.
All dissent I’ve heard has come from the diaspora.
“Without the return of the hostages we will not be able to end the war, we will not be able to rehabilitate ourselves as a society,” Ron Tomer, president of the Manufacturers’ Association of Israel. Te me, “Rehabilitation” implies a level of dissent with Netanyahu’s actions.
I mean, I see what you are saying, but that is pretty rhetorically light. I can see this as maybe the start of something, but I think what we’re seeing out of Israel warrants a more focused and directed conversation.
Then maybe you should, I don’t know, click on the link at the top of this article and look at the photos.
Or possibly just read the headline of the post you’re commenting in.
For fuck’s sake…
They are protesting the retrieval of the hostages; not the genocide of the Gazan people. As far as I know, there are almost no voices in Israel speaking out against the genocide of the Gazan people.
Maybe you should read the article.
This article?
I read it.
Why are you gaslighting?
The trigger for the protests and ceasefire demands was for the rescue hostages, not the end of the ongoing genocide.
Yes, I know what triggered them. What do you think they want Netanyahu to do? Kill even more Palestinians? Is that what you think they’re calling for here? Bomb harder?
Because they’re literally calling for the opposite. Isn’t that a good thing?
@[email protected] started this thread with the topic:
and they are right.
You said:
I pointed out that I’ve seen there are no sources I’ve seen to the contrary coming out of Israel. Everything I’ve seen to the contrary (sources which would make the argument that Israel should not be engaging in genocide, agreeing with @[email protected] 's point ) has been coming from diaspora sources, not sources within Israel.
You then responded with:
But the headline of the article does not make that point, and neither does the article. In fact, its another unit of evidence to suggest there is almost no will to stop the genocide of the Gazan people coming from within Israel. The word genocide occurs no where in the article. There is no mention of forced removal. There is no mention of ethnic cleansing. These protests clearly have nothing to do with the ongoing genocide of the Gazan people and are solely focused on “getting the hostages back”. If there are other sources or people that can speak for the protests that say other wise, I’d love to find them. I’ve not found anyone in Israel willing to call what the Israeli government is doing a genocide. Dissent in Israel wants the hostages back, but they don’t seem to give a shit about the continuing genocide of the Gazan people.
If you think that these protest have anything to do with stopping the war or stopping the genocide, its yourself who has gaslit you.
Let me get this straight…
Are you really claiming that the entire population of Israel- all 9.5 million people- share exactly the same opinion on Palestine?
Because that would be incredibly fucking bigoted of you, so I want to make sure that’s what you’re saying.
If you want to believe this, its on you to show us it. The entire thread obviously knows much more about whats going on in Israel and all we’ve gotten from you is your projection of how you wish things were.
If this opposition to the Israeli led genocide exists within Israel show us.
Sure, right after I show you how I don’t have dual loyalties to America and Israel, right? I have to show people that one all the time.
Of course, a lot of times, they don’t believe me anyway.
You are making a claim for the existence of a thing. No one else made that claim. We are asking for evidence of that claim. I’ve looked for evidence. I am not finding any evidence of a “don’t genocide the Gazans” movement within Israel. I can find evidence outside of Israel.
Funny how you left out the whole Jewish diaspora part this time like you said before. Because you absolutely suggested that people like me are Israelis or even have some sort of opinion about Israel that should be weighted higher than any other non-Israeli.
I want to make this absolutely clear to you:
I am a Jew.
I am not an Israeli.
I have no affiliation to Israel.
I have no Israeli relatives.
I have never been and do not plan to go.
I feel absolutely no allegiance or kinship or anything else to Israel and never have.
I was born in Indiana.
I have far more in common with a Palestinian-American born in Omaha than I do a Jewish Israeli born in Tel Aviv.
Therefore: my stance on Israeli genocide is of equal weight to yours.
So stop bringing up non-Israeli Jews as if they are of specific relevance to this issue.
You like, really need to go touch some grass.
You are asking people to support your claim that there is an extant anti-genocide movement within Israel. You’ve done it repeatedly throughout this entire post.
YOU are making a claim and I’m asking for your evidence.
And I am telling you that I have no reason to give anything to someone who thinks about me and other non-Israeli Jews in such a bigoted way no matter how many times they ask.
Sorry, you lost that when you decided I have dual loyalties.