You could say society has always been like that, and we as a society have decided it’s fine. Advertising as an industry is inherently manipulative, they want to convince you to buy their products, and they’ll use whatever strategies they think will work best.
It’s the exact same with the video game industry, they’ve just realized that “in store” advertising works really well. Yes, it’s manipulative, but people wouldn’t keep buying it if there wasn’t a payoff. I think buying digital items is incredibly stupid, but I also think buying trendy clothes and whatnot is also incredibly stupid.
If you think of cosmetics in the same sense as trendy clothes, it makes a lot more sense. It serves the same sense of vanity, and that vanity will always exist regardless of the laws you set. That demand exists whether you like it or not, and that demand will be satisfied as long as there’s demand for it.
Don’t take this as me saying I approve of the practice (I actively avoid those games on principle), just that I don’t think it should be outlawed. I do think we need policy here, but I should be limited to banning loot boxes, unless there’s a secondary market, in which case it should be regulated as gambling. There’s also an argument for treating F2P games as using F2P players as advertising, and thus banning it for minors unless there’s express, documented parental approval (unlikely to happen at scale). The second one is a bit trickier because social media companies have the same business model, and I’m not a fan of giving personal information to SM companies, so there should also be a way to separate that approval from actual identities (i.e. a digital token signed by your state/country authorities that verifies your age and relationship to the minor; should be automated).
I believe there will always be a market for games that respect your time though since there’s going to be a very real limit to how many of these there can be at a given time, so at a certain point, building traditional games has more value.
Ah yes, that exemplary industry with no need for regulation: advertising.
Banning specific mechanics will never solve anything. It’s all tiny variations on the same abuse. You recognize it’s bad enough to become illegal, but think chasing existing forms that feel especially bad will make you any less manipulated. All that’s going to accomplish is a focus on smoother needles for more efficient wallet siphons.
The existence of non-abusive games is utterly irrelevant to the problems of escalating and spreading abuse. When I point out this is infecting everything, objections that go ‘well only nearly everything’ are wildly missing the point. I don’t fucking care if that’s still a game that doesn’t do this, when I condemn a multi-billion-dollar industry for practices you know include criminally abusive exploitation. All I am telling you is that “include” is insufficient.
Yes, it’s manipulative, but people wouldn’t keep buying it if there wasn’t a payoff.
I never said this. I never said any of it is or should be illegal, except loot boxes (only illegal because they should be classified as “gambling” and regulated as such) and maybe minors playing F2P games supported by cosmetics (smells like child labor since showing off to F2P players is the main attraction).
I merely said I don’t like it, not that it is or should be illegal. I don’t have to make everything that I don’t like illegal, only things that actually have victims, and someone choosing to buy something stupid doesn’t make them a victim unless they were defrauded in how that thing was presented (i.e. false advertising). You’re not a victim if something bad happens to you, you’re only a victim if you didn’t consent.
“Except loot boxes” is you-saying-that. You’re even suggesting a partial ban on cosmetics, unbidden. Thanks? Nice to know you understand it’s awful, and why it’s awful. Not sure why you think it becomes okay when the targets are adults.
Consent means nothing if it’s manufactured. Which these systems obviously do, through utterly shameless manipulation, in an environment made-up by the people taking your money. All appearance of value is contrived. The fact you get the worthless geegaw you were cajoled into believing is worth fifty actual dollars doesn’t matter. The process is the problem.
That’s a special case because it’s gambling. That’s not a comment about MTX in general or addictiveness, but that specific form because it’s based on chance and there’s no way to recoup your “investment.” Anything that’s purchased based on chance should have a secondary market to exchange things you don’t want.
Adults are capable of consent, so they should be free to make their own decisions.
Consent means nothing if it’s manufactured.
I disagree. People should be absolutely free to attempt to manufacture consent, and people should be absolutely free to oppose it. I hold that to be a fundamental freedom, because a restriction of that means you’re letting someone else decide what’s best for you. Nobody has that authority other than the individual themselves.
I make my own decision to avoid such nonsense, but I think it’s unjust to forcibly restrict someone else from making a stupid choice, provided they are capable of consent. There are certainly limitations here (e.g. should be illegal to coerce someone under the influence of drugs/alcohol), but those all must reach some standard of foreknowledge.
If there’s a law here, it should be refunds if the person was not of sound mind when they made the purchase, so perhaps a mandatory 36-hour window for returns if the user presents reasonable evidence that they were impaired (i.e. if the purchase was made at an irregular time, or the person can show evidence of being under the influence), and if the purchase was of an abnormal amount (i.e. spent hundreds instead of the usual <$10).
People should be absolutely free to attempt to manufacture consent
Jesus.
a restriction of that means you’re letting someone else decide what’s best for you.
We ban scams. Identifying and preventing abuses that work is good, actually. Downright necessary. Because it turns out, people are predictably irrational, and some exploitation of that works frighteningly well.
‘I want to choose not to get robbed blind’ is not compelling.
How do you not hear yourself proposing all this nitpicking legislation? You are staring straight at examples of people being tricked into bullshit… and figure the real problem is a lack of “undo.” Nah dude. It’s the part where this entire business model is built on tricking people into paying for bullshit.
Tricking them hard enough that they don’t regret it is actually commonplace in scams - like already-illegal, selling-a-bridge scams. Some victims get taken for everything, and then come back to the scammers with more money, hoping to try again. Regret is not a meaningful measure of victimization, when human beings will bend over backwards to justify their past decisions. Your brain does it for you.
Because they’re not consensual. A scam (or fraudulent transaction to use actual legal terms) is when you agree on one thing but deliver another. This could be false advertising, or using consent for one purpose (e.g. fix your computer) to so another (clean out their bank account).
That’s a very different thing than convincing someone the transaction is a good idea by making the product look enticing or necessary. If you’re getting exactly what was promised for the price that was agreed on, it’s not a scam.
MTX have nothing to do with scams, you’re getting exactly what was advertised and often there’s a “try before you buy” setup (i.e. it’ll show you what your character looks like with it on).
hoping to try again
Well yeah, because they didn’t get what was promised. Whether they think it was a fluke is irrelevant, if you’re not getting what was promised, it’s a scam.
With MTX, you’re getting exactly what was promised, so it’s not a scam, it’s just a stupid purchase.
When the infomercial promises “a fifty-dollar value!” and delivers the two-dollar pan you paid thirty dollars for, you were still scammed. Belief in value is not value or proof of value. Not even if that belief persists. So long as it’s not obviously bullshit… you can remain satisfied.
It’s still bullshit.
You, personally, endorse that bullshit. “Absolutely,” no less. Corporations should be totally free to harass and manipulate people into saying yes. That’s how consent works in the bedroom, right? So long as you don’t technically make threats or tell lies, implication and misdirection are completely ethical. If existing laws don’t already ban something new - it must be fine.
I reiterate: Jesus.
We can, should, do, and must protect people from outright abuses they’d otherwise gladly fall for. Civilization is a series of other people making decisions that limit you. If you want to buy an unsafe house, tough shit. If you want to advertise Russian roulette, tough shit. Knowing the risks is not a universal excuse for risk. Sometimes we just stop problems before they happen.
On some level you recognize this, or else ‘regret for being misled’ wouldn’t be among your several suggested reasons for partial bans. Not even you can take the absolute stance seriously.
When the infomercial promises “a fifty-dollar value!” and delivers the two-dollar pan you paid thirty dollars for, you were still scammed. Belief in value is not value or proof of value.
I disagree. It would only be a scam if they normally sell for $10, then they jacked up the price to $50 just before the infomercial just so they could “lower” it to $30. But if the item is normally $50, it really doesn’t matter what it costs them to make, what matters is if the product performs as advertised.
And no, I don’t endorse it, but merely accept it as a part of a free market.
implication and misdirection are completely ethical
Ethics and law are two completely different things. It may be ethical to steal from the rich and give to the poor, but that should also be illegal.
That said, implication and misdirection can constitute a threat. When it comes to something like rape, there is an actual, tangible relationship to account for, as well as the idea of “implied consent” (lack of resistance), which is quite at odds in a market situation where the individual needs to take action to make a poor choice.
IMO, you can’t really be a victim if you consented and took action in making a decision. Clicking “buy” is very different from not shouting “no” (and potentially running from the house).
If you want to buy an unsafe house,
Then that should be my right. However, I could see authorities preventing me from having children or unaware adults enter the house, because they did not consent to the risk and rightly expect houses they are welcomed into to be up to code.
We should only step in, imo, if an innocent party is at risk. But if they’re all consenting adults and there’s little to no risk to innocent bystanders, I don’t think that interaction should be illegal.
On some level you recognize this, or else ‘regret for being misled’ wouldn’t be among your several suggested reasons for partial bans.
It’s more to ensure proper consent. With MTX, for example, the buyer could be under the influence of some drug, and therefore not completely able to consent to that purchase. Or maybe a child got on the account and made the purchase. Or maybe the UX was so poorly designed (e.g. dark patterns) that they didn’t realize they were making a purchase. There are so many ways for someone to have not completely consented to a transaction that there should be some way out of it.
However, if the individual fully consents and regrets it later, well, I guess that’s a learning experience.
The role of government here is to:
protect children
ensure clarity in the purchase agreement
provide a way out if the purchaser did not fully consent
It’s not to prevent people from making stupid choices or to destroy business models “we” feel are bad for society. It should be focused on ensuring consent between two parties.
You could say society has always been like that, and we as a society have decided it’s fine. Advertising as an industry is inherently manipulative, they want to convince you to buy their products, and they’ll use whatever strategies they think will work best.
It’s the exact same with the video game industry, they’ve just realized that “in store” advertising works really well. Yes, it’s manipulative, but people wouldn’t keep buying it if there wasn’t a payoff. I think buying digital items is incredibly stupid, but I also think buying trendy clothes and whatnot is also incredibly stupid.
If you think of cosmetics in the same sense as trendy clothes, it makes a lot more sense. It serves the same sense of vanity, and that vanity will always exist regardless of the laws you set. That demand exists whether you like it or not, and that demand will be satisfied as long as there’s demand for it.
Don’t take this as me saying I approve of the practice (I actively avoid those games on principle), just that I don’t think it should be outlawed. I do think we need policy here, but I should be limited to banning loot boxes, unless there’s a secondary market, in which case it should be regulated as gambling. There’s also an argument for treating F2P games as using F2P players as advertising, and thus banning it for minors unless there’s express, documented parental approval (unlikely to happen at scale). The second one is a bit trickier because social media companies have the same business model, and I’m not a fan of giving personal information to SM companies, so there should also be a way to separate that approval from actual identities (i.e. a digital token signed by your state/country authorities that verifies your age and relationship to the minor; should be automated).
I believe there will always be a market for games that respect your time though since there’s going to be a very real limit to how many of these there can be at a given time, so at a certain point, building traditional games has more value.
Ah yes, that exemplary industry with no need for regulation: advertising.
Banning specific mechanics will never solve anything. It’s all tiny variations on the same abuse. You recognize it’s bad enough to become illegal, but think chasing existing forms that feel especially bad will make you any less manipulated. All that’s going to accomplish is a focus on smoother needles for more efficient wallet siphons.
The existence of non-abusive games is utterly irrelevant to the problems of escalating and spreading abuse. When I point out this is infecting everything, objections that go ‘well only nearly everything’ are wildly missing the point. I don’t fucking care if that’s still a game that doesn’t do this, when I condemn a multi-billion-dollar industry for practices you know include criminally abusive exploitation. All I am telling you is that “include” is insufficient.
“It makes money so it can’t be wrong.”
I never said this. I never said any of it is or should be illegal, except loot boxes (only illegal because they should be classified as “gambling” and regulated as such) and maybe minors playing F2P games supported by cosmetics (smells like child labor since showing off to F2P players is the main attraction).
I merely said I don’t like it, not that it is or should be illegal. I don’t have to make everything that I don’t like illegal, only things that actually have victims, and someone choosing to buy something stupid doesn’t make them a victim unless they were defrauded in how that thing was presented (i.e. false advertising). You’re not a victim if something bad happens to you, you’re only a victim if you didn’t consent.
“Except loot boxes” is you-saying-that. You’re even suggesting a partial ban on cosmetics, unbidden. Thanks? Nice to know you understand it’s awful, and why it’s awful. Not sure why you think it becomes okay when the targets are adults.
Consent means nothing if it’s manufactured. Which these systems obviously do, through utterly shameless manipulation, in an environment made-up by the people taking your money. All appearance of value is contrived. The fact you get the worthless geegaw you were cajoled into believing is worth fifty actual dollars doesn’t matter. The process is the problem.
That’s a special case because it’s gambling. That’s not a comment about MTX in general or addictiveness, but that specific form because it’s based on chance and there’s no way to recoup your “investment.” Anything that’s purchased based on chance should have a secondary market to exchange things you don’t want.
Adults are capable of consent, so they should be free to make their own decisions.
I disagree. People should be absolutely free to attempt to manufacture consent, and people should be absolutely free to oppose it. I hold that to be a fundamental freedom, because a restriction of that means you’re letting someone else decide what’s best for you. Nobody has that authority other than the individual themselves.
I make my own decision to avoid such nonsense, but I think it’s unjust to forcibly restrict someone else from making a stupid choice, provided they are capable of consent. There are certainly limitations here (e.g. should be illegal to coerce someone under the influence of drugs/alcohol), but those all must reach some standard of foreknowledge.
If there’s a law here, it should be refunds if the person was not of sound mind when they made the purchase, so perhaps a mandatory 36-hour window for returns if the user presents reasonable evidence that they were impaired (i.e. if the purchase was made at an irregular time, or the person can show evidence of being under the influence), and if the purchase was of an abnormal amount (i.e. spent hundreds instead of the usual <$10).
Jesus.
We ban scams. Identifying and preventing abuses that work is good, actually. Downright necessary. Because it turns out, people are predictably irrational, and some exploitation of that works frighteningly well.
‘I want to choose not to get robbed blind’ is not compelling.
How do you not hear yourself proposing all this nitpicking legislation? You are staring straight at examples of people being tricked into bullshit… and figure the real problem is a lack of “undo.” Nah dude. It’s the part where this entire business model is built on tricking people into paying for bullshit.
Tricking them hard enough that they don’t regret it is actually commonplace in scams - like already-illegal, selling-a-bridge scams. Some victims get taken for everything, and then come back to the scammers with more money, hoping to try again. Regret is not a meaningful measure of victimization, when human beings will bend over backwards to justify their past decisions. Your brain does it for you.
Because they’re not consensual. A scam (or fraudulent transaction to use actual legal terms) is when you agree on one thing but deliver another. This could be false advertising, or using consent for one purpose (e.g. fix your computer) to so another (clean out their bank account).
That’s a very different thing than convincing someone the transaction is a good idea by making the product look enticing or necessary. If you’re getting exactly what was promised for the price that was agreed on, it’s not a scam.
MTX have nothing to do with scams, you’re getting exactly what was advertised and often there’s a “try before you buy” setup (i.e. it’ll show you what your character looks like with it on).
Well yeah, because they didn’t get what was promised. Whether they think it was a fluke is irrelevant, if you’re not getting what was promised, it’s a scam.
With MTX, you’re getting exactly what was promised, so it’s not a scam, it’s just a stupid purchase.
When the infomercial promises “a fifty-dollar value!” and delivers the two-dollar pan you paid thirty dollars for, you were still scammed. Belief in value is not value or proof of value. Not even if that belief persists. So long as it’s not obviously bullshit… you can remain satisfied.
It’s still bullshit.
You, personally, endorse that bullshit. “Absolutely,” no less. Corporations should be totally free to harass and manipulate people into saying yes. That’s how consent works in the bedroom, right? So long as you don’t technically make threats or tell lies, implication and misdirection are completely ethical. If existing laws don’t already ban something new - it must be fine.
I reiterate: Jesus.
We can, should, do, and must protect people from outright abuses they’d otherwise gladly fall for. Civilization is a series of other people making decisions that limit you. If you want to buy an unsafe house, tough shit. If you want to advertise Russian roulette, tough shit. Knowing the risks is not a universal excuse for risk. Sometimes we just stop problems before they happen.
On some level you recognize this, or else ‘regret for being misled’ wouldn’t be among your several suggested reasons for partial bans. Not even you can take the absolute stance seriously.
I disagree. It would only be a scam if they normally sell for $10, then they jacked up the price to $50 just before the infomercial just so they could “lower” it to $30. But if the item is normally $50, it really doesn’t matter what it costs them to make, what matters is if the product performs as advertised.
And no, I don’t endorse it, but merely accept it as a part of a free market.
Ethics and law are two completely different things. It may be ethical to steal from the rich and give to the poor, but that should also be illegal.
That said, implication and misdirection can constitute a threat. When it comes to something like rape, there is an actual, tangible relationship to account for, as well as the idea of “implied consent” (lack of resistance), which is quite at odds in a market situation where the individual needs to take action to make a poor choice.
IMO, you can’t really be a victim if you consented and took action in making a decision. Clicking “buy” is very different from not shouting “no” (and potentially running from the house).
Then that should be my right. However, I could see authorities preventing me from having children or unaware adults enter the house, because they did not consent to the risk and rightly expect houses they are welcomed into to be up to code.
We should only step in, imo, if an innocent party is at risk. But if they’re all consenting adults and there’s little to no risk to innocent bystanders, I don’t think that interaction should be illegal.
It’s more to ensure proper consent. With MTX, for example, the buyer could be under the influence of some drug, and therefore not completely able to consent to that purchase. Or maybe a child got on the account and made the purchase. Or maybe the UX was so poorly designed (e.g. dark patterns) that they didn’t realize they were making a purchase. There are so many ways for someone to have not completely consented to a transaction that there should be some way out of it.
However, if the individual fully consents and regrets it later, well, I guess that’s a learning experience.
The role of government here is to:
It’s not to prevent people from making stupid choices or to destroy business models “we” feel are bad for society. It should be focused on ensuring consent between two parties.