• nomadjoanne@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    No, it is not. It is brutal in many ways. But that it is not. Neither is socialomswor communism.

    Pyramid schemes are zero-sum. I steal and gain, you lose. Capitalism and even communism are not zero-sum games. They are net-positive. They involve people making goods and services for others.

    • hark@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Pyramid schemes don’t have to be zero-sum. All you need are assholes at the top trying to suck up as many resources as they can. Imagine the shape that makes.

      • nomadjoanne@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        A hexagon!

        They’re zero sum because money is being exchanged, but the person losing money isn’t getting anything in return for the exchange. Someone is just stealing from someone else (one person loses, anotber gains). No matter how many people are added to the scheme the mechanics remain the same.

        An economy, be it a capitalist or communist one, involves the exchange of money but in exchange for goods and services. Both parties of the transaction gain from it.

        Now, it could be argued that the wrong people gain the most from capitalism. That’s another argument. But the system isn’t zero sum, the way a ponzi scheme or a pyramid scheme is.

        • hark@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Except people are getting fewer goods and services while paying more money. For some, they’re already at starvation wages even when working full-time and they have to dip deeply into credit just to survive.

        • nomadjoanne@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          To all your guys huffing and puffing, I’m not passing moral judgment (here) about communism or capitalism. I’m just saying that any economic system involving trade is not zero sum the way a Ponzi-scheme is.

    • driving_crooner@lemmy.eco.br
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      1 year ago

      I think you can say is a pyramid scheme in the way you can’t really make money if you aren’t making money for someone upper on the ladder, even if are an independent business owner, you still have loans to pay or equipment that is sold by a corporation.

      • EhList@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        That’s called trade. If you “trade” with someone and you do not give them something in return for what they gave you then you either robbed them, swindled them or it was a gift. There is no economic system that does not work this way

        • driving_crooner@lemmy.eco.br
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          1 year ago

          Everywhere around you, you can see work that need to be done, from streets that need to be fixed or land that could be cultivated, and all those work keep undone, because nobody up the ladder would get money from it.

          • EhList@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Fixing the road is a service. People exchange goods and services in trade. This is the basis of every single economy regardless of philosophy.

      • w2qw@aussie.zone
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        1 year ago

        Generally the idea is that both parties need to benefit from any transaction if it is voluntary.

        • migo@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          When you have to eat and the means to feed ourselves is held by few, no transaction is voluntary.

          • hemko@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Of course it’s voluntary. You choose what you buy, when you do it, how much and from whom.

            If someone held you on gunpoint and told you to buy their product, that would be involuntary.

            • Ranolden@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              You can choose what, when, how much, and from whom, but you are still are still forced to do so. Choosing which person puts me at gunpoint doesn’t make it voluntary

              • hemko@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                You can also feed yourself by growing food or hunting. Neither of those are banned, just more inconvenient and you probably have some other skills to sell and buy food instead

            • the post of tom joad@sh.itjust.works
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              1 year ago

              You are forced to buy food, shelter, healthcare, a vehicle (US). You are forced therefore to have a job to pay for these things. Employers know this, and suppress wages with those together, the proverbial gun.

        • GoodEye8@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          Generally speaking, slavery is also benefitial to both parties, you’re either a slave out you get killed. While technically voluntary (because a slave can still choose stand up to the oppressor, even if it’s guaranteed to fail) we don’t consider slavery voluntary. We can say that in this day and age our work is voluntary, but it’s debatable.

          You can look to this year how “voluntary” it is when the Hollywood execs literally said they will wait for the protesters to starve so they’d get back to work. When there’s such a severe power dynamic it becomes almost no different to slavery, because you, individually, can be effectively forced back to work. The only reason Hollywood protests have any chance to have impact is because they collectively oppose the oppression. The power dynamic is being balanced (or dipped in the favor of labor) by sheer number of protestors / workers.

    • Ysysel@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      If we take into consideration the destruction of the ecosystems necessary to sustain human life, capitalism is a net-negative.

      • postmateDumbass@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        They draw the box around the part that is a net positive.

        The destruction of the Commons is not accounted for.

        The impacts outside their box are not accounted for.

        • w2qw@aussie.zone
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          1 year ago

          This is true but not a necessity of capitalism. Pigouvian can put the destruction of the commons back in that box.

      • infotainment@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        That’s the tragedy of the commons, and you’ll find it’s true for basically every possible societal organization.

        • orrk@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          the tragedy of the commons was a bit of British aristocrat propaganda to take the land peasants worked…

      • EhList@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        If we consider the USSR and China were/are behind colossal ecological disasters of their own making, for example the near totall loss of the Aral sea or the Three Rivers Dam, we might have to realize it’s industrial nations over consuming resources that is the real problem.

      • nomadjoanne@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Incredible that you can say that seriously. Human development and civilization causes ecosystem destruction. The particular economic system may affect the specifics of how this happens not whether or not it does.

        • Ysysel@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Capitalism means always looking for more profits. Endless efforts of private owners to expand and increase their profits leads to the perpetual circle of suproduction and overconsumption which destroy ressources and ecosystems.

          This particular system is the main reason it’s happening.

          • havokdj@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Do you honestly think a communist or socialist society which is wealthy would be any healthier for the environment than a capitalist one that is also wealthy?

            We have been destroying the planet long before economy was a concept.

            • Ysysel@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              A socialist or communist society could be healthier. Not saying it automatically would be. The only people theorizing a sustainable economy are on the (far) left though.

              And the last 50 years proved that sustainability is impossible in a capitalist system. It hinders profits, and the basis of capitalism is: always more profits.

              • EhList@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                The basis of capitalism is the least amount of government intrusion possible.

                • Ysysel@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  Well… no. It never was. Even the USA is highly intrusive and protectionnist. Also, state capitalism ? In you other responses you talk about China like it’s not a capitalist country. China is the main example of state capitalism.

                  I think you are confusing capitalism with something else.

                  The wikipedia article is a good start if you are interested.

                  • EhList@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    State capitalism is a bullshit excuse that ML’s came up with why every IRL attempt at socialism fails.

                    China has not always been nearly as market driven especially from the late 80s and earlier. They loosened in the 1990s just like India did. Does this get taught in modern history? That’s a serious question as high school was before these events.

                    Finally if you think wikipedia is a good source you are in no position to be determining how educated on a subject the other person is. If wikipedia really covers the extent of your knowledge on a subject then you really only know the basics. I’d suggest starting with Mankiew’s Intro texts found on the open seas as those will give you an actual basic understanding of modern economics.

            • w2qw@aussie.zone
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              1 year ago

              A socialist society would be better for the environment because all the people would starve /s

          • EhList@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Yet China is responsible for one of the greatest intentional ecological disasters of the last 50 years.

            It isn’t the economic system. It is large entitled industrialized populations that are the issue.