Craig Sumner Elliott, 68, allegedly shot Antonio Garcia Avalos, 40, in incident in Orange county
A California jogger was charged this week in the killing of a homeless man who was blocking the sidewalk.
Craig Sumner Elliott, 68, was jogging with his two dogs and pushing a cart on 28 September when he came across Antonio Garcia Avalos, 40, who was sleeping in the middle of the sidewalk, prosecutors in Orange county, California, said.
Elliott allegedly tried to wake Avalos by nudging him with the pushcart, whereupon Avalos started yelling at Elliott to leave him alone.
Elliott, who allegedly filmed their encounter, then brought a handgun out of his cart, prosecutors charged, adding that when Avalos stood and threw a shoe at Elliott, he ducked and responded by shooting Avalos three times.
Avalos subsequently died from his injuries. Elliott, who does have an active concealed carry permit issued by the local sheriff’s office, was arrested on 17 November in the incident.
Someone who goes jogging with a concealed gun is just looking for a reason to murder someone. This guy found one. 
Eh, hiking and jogging are actually a really good reason to CCW, especially if you live in a remote area. You also have to think about mountain lions and bears where I am, though. We’ve also had multiple trail abductions, 2 of which resulted in laws being passed for abduction here.
That being said, I have been sickened by the number of times I’ve heard jokes like: “This’ll give the mailman a bad time”, or, “I hope they fuck around and find out.” I completely agree, a lot of gun owners WANT to shoot someone.
He had two dogs with him. Highly doubt he’s getting mugged or attacked by mountain lions.
I’m not talking about this guy.
I’m not trying to defend the guy, but two dogs would get DRAGGED by a mountain lion.
Kinda depends on the dogs. A couple chihuahuas aren’t gonna do much against muggers or mountain lions.
I feel ya. Even in a safe neighborhood, shit happens. I related a story in this thread, from just the other night, where a pit bull gave me a fright in my home. (Giant dog door for the pig, would not have kept him out. All went very well!)
Same hood, I saw a post on nextdoor.com about our cross-street, warning that were a couple of pits that often get loose. Chased a pregnant woman down the street!
LOL, I’m on the edge of town and a black bear cruised in a couple of years ago! I know, they’re not typically dangerous, but “trapped” in my house might freak one out. Wasn’t here, missed all the fun. :(
And yes, some of these fuckers are sick in the head. I’m looking for any excuse not to draw, or even reveal, my pistol. Stories like this post make me ill.
Using any handgun, or probably most rifles, against a bear is just going to make it angry. Those fuckers are tanks. Use bear spray for bears.
9mm is iffy, but a lot of handguns in the US are .45 which would do a number on a bear.
Also depends on the bear. A black bear may run at the first sign of trouble. If it’s a grizzly… Bring an anti-tank rifle just to be sure.
I have seen bears run away from the sound of a rifle being fired, in person. They weren’t Grizzlies or anything, just brown bears. Still, I think the sound alone is enough of a deterrent for most bears unless they are desperately hungry or cornered.
Carry both.
Almost every time I’ve gone so far as to draw a weapon, or even came close, it involved an animal. The 4-legged sort. And I can count those times, including being close to drawing, on one hand. But still… (Maybe I drew once?)
My small children are here for the week, guns in the safes, but I normally have my Colt .45 hidden on my desk.
Couple of nights ago I heard a ruckus, opened the door, and a fucking pit bull was right there running around. I have a giant dog door, that dog could have run right in. And a bear did so one time!
Grabbed the single-shot 12-gauge over the door sill, jammed one in there, went back on the porch. Fortunately, he was a happy, friendly puppy that got loose from a young family taking a walk. My relief cannot be overstated.
“That your dog?”
“Yes, so sorry!”
“Oh thank god, no problem! No problem at all!”
So no, I’m not walking the streets or woods unarmed. And no, we gun owners are not all murderous fucking nutcases.
68 years old. He probably up until now had the acuity to restrain himself in such a situation. When you get older, barriers between emotional reactions, memory, and perception, start to blur. Everyone agreed that my great uncle never hurt anyone least if all his wife of 50 years a d was known to be a calm dude, until the one day when he chased my great aunt around the house with a knife and then ran off into the forest. If he’d had a gun maybe it would have been one of the many handgun murder-suicides that happen every day. It was just a knife though, so on addition to cooking dinner or cutting a cake, she was able to outrun it.
All humans will go through this, none of them should just have whatever guns without limitations or ongoing proof of sentience.
Everyone who owns a gun are looking to murder someone. They’re just looking for the excuse like someone backing out of their driveway, a door to door salesman knocking on their door, and a bunch of kids playing hide and seek in their neighborhood.
In the past few years I’ve had a homeless fellow break into our home pushing my wife down, had one scream at my wife and push my kid, had one follow my kid being abusive, had a crazy with a broken bottle make stabbing motions towards everyone that passes while giggling. We’ve made do with pepper spray and in my case fists but I can understand a 68 year old dude carrying a gun since he probably can’t physically protect himself. His mistake was believing that having a backup plan made it safe to escalate. This made escalation vastly more likely.
Doesn’t sound like any of those stories involve a sleeping homeless man on public property though.
Public property means we can all use the sidewalk to get from A to B none of us is empowered to make exclusive use of it by blocking it with our tent, body, or homeless shit. It is perfectly justifiable to ask someone to move and it would have been perfectly justifiable to respond to a flying shoe with an ass kicking or better yet pepper spraying. Proportionality is important. Bringing a gun into it is nuts it immediately escalates it even if you don’t intend to fire. You’ve basically decided its going to be a murder or a suicide.
“Elliott allegedly tried to wake Avalos by nudging him with the pushcart”
That’s not asking someone to move, that’s using force to try to get them to move. Although I agree public property means we should all be able to use it and no one should block it, I disagree that any individual is allowed to use force to enforce that law. Report such lawbreaking to the authorities, and then simply walk around them.
After Elliot assaulted Avalos with his cart, Avalos yelled at him. After Avalos yelled at him, Elliot pulled out his gun. After Elliot pulled out his gun, Avalos threw his shoe.
If someone pulled a gun on you after you yelled at them, would you be justified in kicking their ass or pepper spraying them?
After someone pulled a gun on me I would retreat so as not to die. This rather demonstrates the folly of using threats on crazy people as they don’t respond rationally. At least one lesson is don’t use guns as a threat. Retain them as a last resort in case you should actually need to use them and don’t take chances you otherwise wouldn’t.
If the old fellow had figured either of those out we would have one less corpse and one less prisoner.
I don’t believe what the old man did is justifiable merely comprehensible. People trying to turn this into Rittenhouse with depends are reaching. We have a scared old men and a drug addict who woke up angry. The homeless man goes to a grave and the old fellow likely goes to jail.
It’s yet another example of more guns making our whole fucking society worse.
The only thing I understood, based on the murderer’s choices, was that he started a confrontation he could have easily avoided, and then chose to kill someone instead of disengage. I would never kill someone for blocking a sidewalk or even throwing a shoe at me. Neither of those things are life threatening.
Why he decided to assault someone with his pushcart, I also don’t comprehend. Just walk around the person. The only thing that makes sense is this murderer had intent to start trouble. It’s like Markeis McGlockton‘s murderer. Some people go around looking for a fight, it’s bad enough that they get away with this most of the time, it’s worse that they are able to carry around a gun. This guy needs to spend the rest of his life in jail so he doesn’t shoot another person just because he’s pissed off.
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I’m not sure if you just don’t believe the bad part of cities exists or the people there don’t have internet?
Maybe it’s time to take your meds?
I’m not sure if you just don’t believe the bad part of cities exists or the people there don’t have internet?
Oh but those poor unhoused people! We should do nothing to help them but also not bother them when they take up public shared spaces.
If you’re of the opinion that there’s any credible argument for personal firearm ownership for self defense at all (perhaps you don’t, I don’t know you) then jogging alone in the city would seem like one of the better times to carry…
remind me, how do responsible gun owners store firearms again? Is it loaded, armed, and loose in a cart in public?
He had two dogs with him. That’s generally enough of anl deterrent all by itself.
I disagree. I lived in a pretty high-crime part of Brooklyn for 26 years, and at no time did I feel the need to carry a gun to feel safe walking around.