Fuck statists, all my homies hate statists
Statistically speaking, of course.
Statists or Tankies. Can we just find a nice happy middle ground ffs?
The amount of actual socialist communities on Lemmy is fucking absurd. I hate capitalism, but straight socialism isn’t any better.
Socialist countries doesn’t necessarily have to be authoritarian, although some may be. Its an economic system designed to put workers in more direct control, despite western capitalists who love to tell you socialism = dictatorship. Why would we even want that??
Socialist groups in north america also played a big part on why child labour was banned, why we have the right to weekends, why blacks and minorities can be trated like human beings ans so on.
True socialism, not just a mixed economy, will invariably be authoritarian. People will never democratically take it that far; history shows this.
History shows us quite the opposite actually. Socialism goes well most of the time whenever the US can’t interfere too much.
That is hilariously untrue. The USSR and PRC are the biggest and worst examples. Every other historically socialist country was generally more bad than good. Yes, there have been some tendencies in socialist countries to e.g. dramatically improve education and literacy, but generally at the cost of the people’s political liberties, the government taking political prisoners, mass killings, speech being censored, etc.
key phrase being “whenever the US can’t interfere too much”
investigate that correlation because its enlightening.
Some of successful implementations of Socialist policies is via Social Democracy, which is still a Capitalist country, but with a strong social safety net and a lot of regulations, and Democracy still exists (Eg: Norway). Then there’s Democratic Socialism, which seeks to establish Socialism via democratic means.
I believe that a socialized democracy is a best of both worlds approach. We need stronger safety nets for people. People shouldn’t have to live paycheck to paycheck and worry about if they are going to have a home if they lose their job. People shouldn’t have to worry about losing everything if they have to go to the hospital. Education should 100% be free - we should be investing in a smarter, more educated population. I believe that we’re seeing exactly what happens when we don’t properly invest in education.
Leaving capitalism even partially intact means there is room for it to claw back power from the people. The Nordic model is a temporary measure that is already being weakened in different areas. Not to mention countries like Norway and Sweden are able to keep their own wages, cost of living, etc reasonable by exploiting developing countries in the global south. Capitalism can’t be regulated into obedience, it’s an oppressive and coercive power structure that will always do what it can to survive unless.totally eradicated. Same for the state
I personally view Social Democracy as one of the stages you have to go through before achieving Socialism. Violent revolutions cause too much instability and is breeding ground for authoritarianism, and violence should be avoided as long as there is still a democratic system to achieve your goals. (Violence is a last resort, obviously if your country is a dictatorship, that might be unavoidable) Socialism is compatible with Democracy, and some might even argue that Socialist societies require Democracy. To prevent regression to Capitalism, we can write a new constitution that has Socialist ideals as an entrenched clause and such a country would also need to practice Defensive Democracy and ban political parties that are anti-egalitarian (basically like Germany’s Defensive Democracy, with with added Socialism). But it’s going to be a challenge to get it just right that it doesn’t regress into Capitalism, but also doesn’t become authoritarian. The biggest challenge is to convince a majority of the people to support Socialism, because forcing a country to become Socialist isn’t going to work if most people are against it. And because of the past failed attempts at Socialist/Communist ideologies and the totalitarianism that resulted from those attempts, it’s going to be difficult to convince people to try it again, because people would fear that this time, it would also result in totalitarianism again.
The ultimate goal of socialism, in any form it may take, is to democratize every aspect of collective society. Be it the work place, government, industry, schooling, etc. Socialism is fundamentally against one person having unjust power and influence over others. I’d say that’s the major thread that ties all of the different socialist ideologies together.
Revolution and revolutionary action takes many forms and is often a long process. The violent overthrowing of the powers that be that is often associated with revolution nowadays but we ignore the less dramatic and showy ways it operates before that. Not to say violence isn’t going to be necessary. For example, the state has power because of its monopoly on violence. The state says who they use their force against and for what reasons, regardless of the wishes or consent of their citizens. Radical democracy inherently involves taking the power of violence, oppression and coercion from the state.
In the same way the capitalist will not readily give up their wealth because we told them to pay their fair share, a state will not give up it’s monopoly on violence because we told them we don’t want them to kill us any more.
As an anarchist, many of us believe in a balance of means and ends. Which is what I feel you’re alluding to moreso than the use of political violence. We think that the situation you’re in limits the means available to you, and therefore the ends you can achieve. Your means MUST justify your ends. And if you’re looking for a specific end (i.e. the abolition of capitalism and the state) you need to work to provide the correct means to meet it. Anarchists have many ideas on how to avoid the pitfalls and are doing work every day to see that through.
If you’re interested, I’d be happy to provide some reading/listening material on the subject. Many people.much more eloquent than myself have dedicated their lives to addressing the very things you’re worried about and I wouldn’t want to misrepresent.them as I’m still learning the ins and outs myself.
My problem with Demsoc is that it doesn’t work in 3rd world countries to really address the issues, only to improve on them a little bit (see south america).
I think it only really works that well in europe because of imperialism.
What works really well in developing nations is capitalism (i.e. outside investment).
You never been to a developing nation have you?
Yes, I absolutely have.
I doubt so. You sound like someone who would fold under the conditions of the working class in most of these “capitalist utopia” sweatshops.
Would gay socialism do it for you? Or fully-automated luxury gay space communism?
Oooh…I never considered that lol.
Big whoops on “straight socialism”.
Can I get a Lesbian Inter-Galactic Anarcho-Communist Federated United Front?
It’s a free universe, innit?
How does Georgism sound to you?
It’s a liberal ideology based on sound economic policies (primarily land value tax, but also things like carbon tax-and-dividend are very Georgist policies), which seeks to maximize freedom, minimize monopolism, and maximize prosperity for all.
Land and the means of production should be held in common, not taxed.
Why? Also why group land and capital together under “the means of production”? Economically speaking, the fact you can create more capital but not more land makes them very different.
The shit on hexbear makes Trump look sane, and thats no easy feat.
makes Trump look sane
Let’s not go too far, now. I could be tripping on acid while listening to a tankie buzzword lecture and still not reach the sheer incomprehensible dribble of a Trump speech.
Okay, maybe a little hyperbole, but I got my point across.
They support authoritarianism but claim China is totally a democracy.
Something tells me you’ve also had unpleasant encounters with hexbears
Something tells me you’ve also had
unpleasantencounters with hexbearsFTFY
Totally a democracy. I asked my relative in China the last time they voted for representatives, they were like “what?” Apparantly they believe it’s a “Democracy” as long as the government listens to the will of the people, but to them, “Democracy” doesn’t necessary have to be “one person, one vote”. So technically, by that definition, they’d be correct that China is a “Democracy”. Even though most of us living in Democracies with elections, that would not be considered Democracy. If you just adjust the definitions of words, anything can be true.
They’re so wrong they’re accidentally right. Democracy is not the process of voting, else the DPRK would be a democracy. Democracy is a culture, and must take many forms to manifest itself. It’s the fair elections, yes, but it’s also the social dialogue, free press, freedom of speech, freedom to assemble, independent judiciary, human rights, etc. It’s the shared belief in and willingness to uphold the ultimate sovereignty of the people, for the people.
Don’t forget “by the people.”
Successful democracy is a participatory process.
Apparantly they believe it’s a “Democracy” as long as the government listens to the will of the people, but to them
this is exactly what a hexbear told me.
Their example involves elected representatives? It sounds like they are saying democracy is elections plus more, which I would agree with. Elections are necessary but not sufficient for democracy.
Ah, so to them democracy is benevolent* authoritarianism, it all makes sense now.
*benevolent for #worthy citizens
Maybe they should start with some definitions so that they don’t deliberately obfuscate the meaning of what they are saying.
What really gets me is the DPRK apologists that are like*Nah bro, it’s a totally rad place to live, you were just told capitalist lies, trust me bro, very happy people."
Pretty much
but have you considered putting the right smart guy in charge?
Well sure y’all can put me in charge. Surely, I wont do the same thing the last person did…
Trust me, bro 😉
That’s 95 percent of lemmy users
Nah, I’ve also seen about 3% legit Nazis and 6% normal people…
Above 90 percent yes
I think the poster is implying it can only be approx 91% of Lemmy users.
Ok
Where?
I do wonder how many anarchists are on lemmy
Web anarchists? Most are. Real World anarchists? Just some idiots.
I thought most anarchists of any sort went to raddle?
I hate the term authoritarianism. Pretty much everything on that stupid political spectrum graph is nonsense.
Some things should be allowed and some shouldn’t and some can’t if you want to maintain a leftist society when you’re fighting against a worldwide capitalist hegemony. And those things differ depending on the situation.
I also hate how people draw the line at where authoritarianism lies. It’s almost always in bad faith.
Authoritarianism is when the people have no practical method of holding the leaders accountable (I mean short of a violent revolution), when leaders aren’t held accountable, they can stray from egalitarian ideals. The Communist Party of China promised to establish a class-less society, yet because there were no accountability, the leaders strayed from their original ideals and just relabel it as “Socialism with Chinese Characteristics” and now it became yet another Capitalist country. Just search “Richest People in China” and look at their net worth. Is that Communism to you?
No, as China has essentially transformed into a fascist state in all but name.
I wouldn’t call it a fascist state. Far from a fascist state. Just your average poorly mismanaged dictatorship. As long as you don’t protest, your life would probably be fine. You don’t have unlimited access to the internet, you cannot easily find certain information the government doesn’t want you to know (Eg: Tiananmen). But believe it or not, LGBT+ people aren’t actively hunted down like the media always depict it to be. It isn’t like countries with Islamic law. The worst thing LGBT people have to live with is that they don’t have any legal protections against discrimination. You aren’t allowed to protest for better protection for LGBT+ people, you just have to live with it. Everything the news talked about essentially boils down to censorship. You aren’t allowed to make any LGBT+ chat groups. But thats far different than literal genocide (although, I wont deny the possible genocides of other groups of people, I just don’t have enough reliable information to ascertain the validity of those claims, although I wouldn’t be surprised if those claims were true). China obviously isn’t a paradise, but it’s nowhere near as bad as Nazi Germany. You’re probably thinking of Mao-Era China, not modern China.
Basically: Don’t criticize the government and they leave you alone (for the most part)
Source: My experience from living in China before I immigrated to the US, and the life stories my parents and grandparents told me, and relatives currently living in China.
(Oh you know the Censorship thing? Lol my relatives in China basically has free access to outside information via calling overseas relatives like my family in the US. If they want to censor that, they’d have to cut off all phone calls.)
Listen buddy, I’ve read enough books about China and it’s politics and culture that the “google this one thing” spiel isn’t gonna make much headway with me. I have criticisms and I support other things. China is a big country and different political moves have affected areas positively and negatively, and there are pros and cons to them allowing capitalist interests to become involved in their politics.
When you say “google how many billionaires” there are to me though it makes me think you don’t really understand what you’re talking about. That’s fine though, nobody is born with knowledge, and how the fuck are we supposed to know when we live on the other side of the world? Pick up some books about the subject, you’re obviously passionate about it so I think you’ll enjoy it.
I’ll bite. What are the things you like about the CCP? There are plenty of good things about China but I’m not aware of any that were created or expanded upon by the “Communist” regime. The bad things are so bad that I can just list ethnic groups and we all know what I’m taking about.
You say that but I wonder if you’ll say it again when the Red Guard put you in a labor camp because you listened to a song they didn’t like.
You’re an idiot.
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We did (well the previous generation did), we let the Communist Party of China ruled mainland China since 1949 and we still haven’t acheived whatever “utopia” they promised. It just became yet another capitalist country that they seeked to destroy. If China wasn’t so bad, so many Chinese people like my family and I wouldn’t even want to immigrate to the US.
I hope this is a joke lol
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I have encountered way more posts shrieking about tankies than actual tankies on lemmy.
Havent even seen a tankie yet and if I did at this point I’d be sure to browse their post history.
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“I hate astrology” is code for “I have no idea how the zodiac works”
Wanna bet? Ask one of those “I hate astrology” dudes, what’s the difference between soft aspects and emphatic aspects, and don’t hold your breath because you’ll laugh.
Even better. Ask them the difference between cardinal signs and mutable signs and how that relates to the current solar cycle and their personal birth charts.
Well, I guess teenagers remain teenagers for decades some times.
Nice come back. I bet the herd loves such comebacks when you can’t argue with logic.
If you’re dumb enough to compare something that isn’t tangible or measurable in any way with an economic system that’s been running for thousands of years, then feel free. Ignorance is loved nowadays. It’s the norm. Enjoy the herd’s approval!
God this is some top tier /iamverysmart shit.
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Lmao I can practically smell the fedora and neckbeard through the screen.
At least they’re more open about it than you
Nope. They will do shit like super China but claim it is not authoritarian. Totally delusional.
Then it’s right for me to say that you believe in gassing Jews, no?
Dude… What?
