An architect designs a bridge. The materials include a number of steel beams that dont actually meet the support requirements for the bridge’s expected traffic. The bridge collapses.
This guy, to the survivors of the collapse: Have you ever even taken a bridge safety course?
This analogy is flawed. The engineer would be a gunsmith. The bridge collapsing would be the gun catastrophically failing. A bridge is not deliberately designed to inflict damage on animals (mostly humans) the way a gun is.
I wasn’t aiming at crafting the perfect analogy. I wanted to capture the absurdity and fucking asininity of the responders comment.
The point is that it’s not up to either the bridge’s users (the actors in the film) to “take a safety course” - it’s up to the bridge designers/builders (the film set’s armorer if we’re talking about direct blame or the executive film staff if were talking about corner cutting or poor funding) to make sure the bridge (the prop gun) is safe to use.
If Baldwin is culpable for corner cutting as an executive staff member (and for example, hiring a shitty armorer to save on costs), so be it. I don’t give a shit about him. But being mad at someone for not checking a gun when the responsibility lies on a hired expert and this is just how Hollywood operates and in a century of filmmaking there have been a handful of freak accidents?
That’s pretty much what this sounds like to me.
Here’s a more applicable example.
Two carnival clowns are having a faux sword fight. One clown hits the other clown, only to find out that his sword is razor sharp. The second clown is impaled and dies.
Do you think we would give the clown the benefit of the doubt?
Is there a clown armorer in the clown troupe who was supposed to diligently do his job and check that the swords are fake?
I’m not against making the clowns take a class about pressing their thumbs to the blade or trying to slice a piece of paper in half (checking that the bullets in the gun are crimped and, therefore, blank), but if the clown industry’s SOP is to always have a clown armorer on staff and one of the clown armorer’s main jobs is to make sure that all the swords are plastic, then who’s to blame here? Who even stored a real metal sword with the fake plastic clown swords? This is a massive failure in clown procedure.
All of what you said can be true and yet, we would probably convict the clown anyway. The clown is poor, “stupid”, and disposable. Alec Baldwin is protected by his class, wealth, and fame. There are two standards of justice here and Baldwin will be given the benefit of the doubt because of his power.
I’m not so sure we’d convict the clown - but I also wouldn’t argue that the wealthy and famous don’t have their own lane when it comes to legal matters. Even if we didn’t convict the clown, Baldwin’s own road to vindication and absolution would be much, much easier.
And for the record: I don’t care about him in the slightest. If he got life in prison over this, all I’d care about is whether it was a just verdict and sentence.
I agree. I don’t know for sure if we’d convict the clown. I also don’t care about Baldwin. And finally, I also think his privilege protects him.
Are people arguing the armorer, who left live ammunition in a gun, ISN’T responsible for the accident?? I don’t understand who or what he’s arguing against
Regardless of the failure of physical controls, no one seems to be noting that safety training is also not Baldwin’s responsibility.
I certainly don’t look at a rich old hyperlib and think “Yeah, he knows this ‘prop gun’ is just an actual gun.” I don’t look at Baldwin and even think “He knows not to point this at something he isn’t willing to destroy.”
I wouldn’t assume he knows a single thing about guns I didn’t directly tell him and have him repeat back to me.
What armorer?
Alec Baldwin, as producer for the show in question, conducted that shoot without one on the set.
Thus why Baldwin is the one at fault for the shooting - and, funny enough, NOT because he was the one holding the trigger at the time it happened.
…what are you talking about? There was an armorer, Hannah Gutierrez, and she’s being charged.
Something’s strange; because last time I looked into the issue, there was definitely some note about a previous armorer on the crew being fired or not brought to the set on that day. Currently, I admit I’m unable to locate a source on that, but I can’t imagine I was remembering that from nothing.
While you may not be remembering it from nothing, you were obviously misinformed. This is easily verifiable.
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Why the fuck do they use real weapons on a set and not prop weapons? That’s the part I don’t understand at all…
Prop can also mean it’s a real gun.
You usually want them to be shot, at least with blanks. Nowadays you could probably fake that well with CGI, but using blanks is probably easier (and thus cheaper).
On automatica, they have to put partial obstructions inside the barrels to provide enough back-preasure to cycle the weapons without a bullet. That also means they cannot fire a live round.
Revolvers don’t need the same modification to operate with blanks, but after The Crow and this, they really should have it done anyway.
Well, that or have the actors learn this information:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jjk3j2bsxVw
BEFORE filming starts. Make them take a class on it for all I care and don’t let them touch real guns if they fail. Simple as. If an actor (or literally anyone) can’t even learn Col. Jeff Cooper’s Four Rules they don’t deserve to touch something they could kill someone with. And this clown should know how fucking easy that should be, not making stupid excuses about job titles precluding you from responsibility of safety precautions.
Iirc Hexum’s gun was loaded with blanks. He held it to his temple not realizing the explosive pressure from the blank was enough to send a piece of his skull through his brain.
More info from the wiki
On October 12, 1984, the cast and crew of Cover Up were filming the seventh episode of the series, “Golden Opportunity”, on Stage 18 of the 20th Century Fox lot. One of the scenes filmed that day called for Hexum’s character to load cartridges into a .44 Magnum handgun, so he was provided with a functional gun and blanks. When the scene did not play as the director wanted it to in the master shot, there was a delay in filming. Hexum became restless and impatient during the delay and began playing around to lighten the mood. He had unloaded all but one (blank) round, spun it, and—simulating Russian roulette—he put the revolver to his right temple and pulled the trigger, unaware of the danger.[8]
The explosive effect of the muzzle blast caused enough blunt force trauma to fracture a quarter-sized piece of his skull and propel this into his brain, causing massive hemorrhaging.[3][9]A 44 magnum? Did he not know how insanely loud those are even with blanks?
I might not know jumping in a jet engine will kill me, but the noise is enough to scare me off trying.
No link?
It might be cheap?
’Murica, where real guns are cheaper than fake guns.
Being paid for your work, where time spent editing is more expensive than doing it practically.
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If you manufacture a prop gun in such a way that it is indistinguishable from the real thing in how it looks, sounds, and functions, you’ve just made a real gun. If you’re able to do all that and make it a completely safe prop without the capability of killing someone when loaded with real ammunition, you could make bank.
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How would a fake gun make the sounds? Guess you could add in editing afterwards but the cleanest, easiest and most realistic would always be to use a real gun with blanks I would have thought. But I’m not a movie producer, so idk
Could also be that even if you’re able to get similar quality gun shots off a fake gun, it would cost a lot more in production etc
Ah, didn’t realize that’s what they did. I thought they just fired fake guns (eg something like an airsoft gun with gas blowback or something fancy )and edited the sounds in later.
From what understand, guns are silly loud. Much louder than they sound in movies.
But I’ve never fired or even held one, so what do I know :)
I don’t actually know how they do it in movies but from this one example I’m assuming it was industry standard but I could be wrong.
Other movies might do what you said e.g. airsoft gun or fake gun, with edited sounds later
I do find it hard to believe the industry standard is to use real guns with blanks but it may be that way. It’s a lot simpler, but obviously more dangerous
And yes guns are very loud, after a gun goes off beside you, you will have a sort of numbing in your ear for a few seconds and you can’t hear anything out of it lol
You’re right, big loud. If that is what actors are doing they should all be wearing earpro.
Have you ever heard a large firecracker pop? It’s very similar.
According to the Associated Press, since 1990:
43 people died on sets in the U.S. and more than 150 had been left with life-altering injuries.
But only two of those deaths in that time were from firearms.
I’ve done some digging, and I can only find 3 people who’ve died from firearms accidents in Hollywood’s history: Jon-Erik Hexum, Brandon Lee, and Halyna Hutchins. Does anybody know of another production worker killed by firearms?
Can any industry or profession that regularly deals with firearms compare with this kind of safety record? People in law enforcement, the military, and regular gun owners who lecture Hollywood on firearms safety probably need to STFU.
Alec Baldwin was a producer on the movie and thus was involved in the decision making process to have nonunion crew on set. IATSE armorers have a near-perfect track record with firearms on set. As somebody with the clout to make it happen, Baldwin should have insisted on the shoot being a union set.
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The issue is, as I understand it, that Baldwin was handed the revolver from a producer or someone of similar standing and he should have handed it to the armorer for checking, regardless of what he was told.
Doesn’t matter. “Prop” guns don’t exist and every gun is unfit unless physically checked by yourself personally.
No idea why you are getting so much hate. Anyone who has been taught how to handle a firearm knows to treat every weapon as if it was loaded. It doesn’t matter if it’s a training firearm which can be a very bright color and has parts visibly drilled out so you can see it will not function, guns firing blanks, an airsoft gun, even something like a pneumatic nail gun, etc. Verify the source of ammunition is empty and there is not a round in the chamber visibly and physically.
I’m not saying everyone in the world should know this, but anyone handling any form of firearm should. Alec Baldwin has been in enough movies and shows where guns were handled that he must have been taught this and seen it as the protocol multiple times.
This is gun safety and it’s not a bad thing,.I’m not a huge gun fan myself but promoting firearm safety isn’t anything to look down on.
ITT: “Basic gun safety isn’t necessary if you have a SAG card.”
Actually, prop guns do exist and I’m not talking about the ones that shoot blanks.
Or have you never seen a cosplayer with a gun?
There are realistic looking prop guns that are built without a firing mechanism. Without, meaning it never existed in the design.
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OK Rambo.
Why don’t they remove the firing mechanism from prop guns? The hammer that strikes the bullet?
Prop guns often fire blanks for the sound and flash, so they still need a firing pin.
It doesn’t have to be like that. We could design a different firing mechanism.
We don’t need to. Only 3 people have died by guns on film sets in over 30 years, and every time it’s cause some idiot used real ammo in it at some point. Just never use real ammo in your prop guns, and they are always fine.
That’s not what happened. The guns were used with real ammo at a range to go shooting, then used as prop guns later without properly checking that there were no live rounds or lodged bullets in the guns.
And I’m not minimizing them, I’m telling you the actual solution isn’t modifying the firing pin, or changing the rules, since the rules work. These deaths were due to idiots breaking the rules, but the rules have worked to prevent thousands of deaths, and if followed no one will ever dies.
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Million dollar idea right here
Yep. It would cost a million dollars to develop and still no one would use it.
Whatever happened was horrible but also, and my brain can’t stop thinking about this, will the movie ever come out? I don’t think it did
They resumed filming after Bladwin was found not guilty and subsequently wrapped, but there’s no release date or anything yet
He wasn’t found “not guilty”, it doesn’t even sound like charges were brought against him, his lawyers just started that he wouldn’t be charged which means that there is a possibility of charges being brought against him in the future if new evidence comes to light.
Oh yeah the execs will sit on it until they feel safe that the release will not reflect badly on them.
I’m not super up to date with the situation—Why is it that it happened in 2021 (from what I can find) and there’s a bunch of people talking about it right now?
The trial started this week so it’s somewhat topical. But there are no time limits for posts here. If you’d like that rule to change, please comment in the stickied post with your reasoning and suggestion for what the limit should be. Thanks.
I knew an MOS2111 sgt… they had a ND that resulted in the loss of a foot.
Military credentials dont mean shit, son.
Still better than opinion credentials.
Appeals to authority are only as good as the Authority figure you’re invoking. If you appeal to an incompetent person, then yeah it doesn’t mean shit
I think the take away on this is:
As is, currently, actors are not responsible for checking their prop weapons on set. No actor is ever expected to do it, because there are people responsible for it. In the event of an incident, in the current standard practices, no one can reasonably blame the actor.
But, systematically, it shouldn’t be that way.
We can’t look at one incident and say “clearly the actor was in the wrong” because culturally, it’s X Y and Z tech’s job to check the firearm. But cultures within an industry can shift. Currently, firearm safety on set isn’t everyone’s job. But it should be everyone’s job. The system should be better, because firearm safety is a demonstrably life-or-death process.
How do you change the system? By holding productions liable when stuff like this happens. You sue the absolute shit out of the producers, so the producers have a crippling fear of NOT improving the system.
You don’t hold the actor Alec Baldwin responsible. You hold the producer Alec Baldwin responsible.
you don’t change the system. letting the actor check the mag/clear the chamber adds an additional point of failure in the process and reduces safety for everyone on set.
if you want to change things you stop filming with hot weapons entirely.
I don’t get why they aren’t using altered guns that can’t accommodate real ammo? Seems crazy to use a fully functioning gun
You don’t have the actor check the weapon instead of the armorer. You have them check it in addition to the armorer. You pick up a gun, you check it.
This is basic gun safety. If a gun ever leaves your direct control or observation, no matter how short, you check it.
So now all kinds of people who aren’t experts are unloading and loading the gun? That’s insane
He didn’t answer the question…
I think he’s just trying to deflect, what kind of weapons training do you get in the air force?
The 82nd Airborne Division is an airborne infantry division of the United States Army specializing in parachute assault operations into denied areas with a U.S. Department of Defense requirement to “respond to crisis contingencies anywhere in the world within 18 hours”.
If there’s one thing I miss about reddit it’s the massive oversaturation of sarcasm.
Put your mouse on safe. Make sure your chair is in a comfortable position.
Why would they need guns, it’s not like they’re going to shoot out of their planes windows. The whole thing doesn’t make sense.
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You’re kidding, right?
I just don’t think they’re very knowledgeable about modern warfare. They need to do some research like I have, the ac-130 level is my favorite to play with friends, I learned so much from it.
You should work on movie sets.
This is one of those few times where quite literally over 50 million Americans could have done a better job than the armorer.
Not to be a downer or anything, but I feel like the person who challenged the story wasn’t really in the wrong here?
It’s not that the story isn’t true or the person who reported it isn’t who they said it was. It’s that, they didn’t mention their credentials right off. Now that we’re living in an era when misinformation is rife, especially now that some people appear poised to flood us with a sea of LLM-generated shit, citations and backing up your information up front are becoming more important.
People make confident and bold assertions all the time. Some of them will know what they’re talking about, but some of them won’t, and many times they’ll look the same until someone challenges them.
Well, that’s how I see it anyway.
Every range I did in the military, they stressed that everyone on the range was a safety officer, and that anyone can call cease fire at any time if they felt conditions were unsafe. So yeah, that’s how I see it.
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Amongst all the huhbub and finger pointing, the actual first rule of guns is always check that the gun is loaded.
You check the chamber and you check the ammo.
At no point should there ever be live ammo on a movie shoot. Whether that Baldwin’s fault for hiring a shitty armorer, I don’t know. But there where many failures up and down the line. If the assistant director was also supposed to check, they also failed.
But at the end of the line, Alec Baldwin picked up the gun and didn’t or couldn’t identify that the gun was loaded with live ammunition and pulled the trigger while it was pointed at someone. And that person died.
You check the chamber and you check the ammo.
So actors, who aren’t experts, should be disassembling and unloading/loading the guns they’re using, after the armorer has declared the gun safe? Is that what you think will make this safer?
Same rules as climbing. Check your own gear, and check your partner’s gear.
The armorer can unload, check, and reload the gun in front of the actor. Then the actor can unload, check, and reload the gun under the training and supervisions if the armorer. Any actor seeking to hold a real gun should also need independent, verified training that comes from outside the studio. We don’t let actors fly planes or perform surgery to make the shot slightly more realistic unless they have valid training, why should guns be any different?
There is also no valid reason (cost is not a valid reason) for why there would be a real bullet that fits in a real gun (the lead projectile part) anywhere on set. Even if you need a shot with one, don’t make it out of metal or anything strong enough to survive the blank going off.
Whoeve loaded the gun is partially responsible. Alec Baldwin the producer is the most responsible. And Alec Baldwin the actor is partially responsible.
Yes, if you’re a rock climber.
If you’re an actor doing a rock climbing scene in a movie, you don’t know how the gear should be set up. You rely on the crew and rock climbing expert on set to check your gear. If you check or modify the gear to test it in some way, you may inadvertently make it unsafe because you don’t know anything about Rock climbing gear and safety.
If you are climbing rocks in a movie, you are a rock climber.
If you are belaying someone fir a shot who falls and dies because their gear was not checked, then you are responsible in the exact same way.
If you have insufficient training to check it under the direct supervision of an expert without fucking it up, then you shouldn’t be anywhere near it.
There is also no valid reason (cost is not a valid reason) for why there would be a real bullet that fits in a real gun (the lead projectile part) anywhere on set.
There is a valid reason: you can get a realistic kick back from firing a real bullet compared to a blank. There is a safe way to do those kinds of stunts, but the accident here happened because things weren’t done safely.
You can crash a car by being unsafe; you wouldn’t get a bunch of people up in arms saying “There is also no valid reason (cost is not a valid reason) for why there would be a real car that fits in a real lane (the space between the white painted lines) anywhere on the road”
They are actors. They can act. Movies break verisimilitude in countless other ways (many of them much stupider).
If the actor were driving the car directly at someone on the road without a license or any driving training or experience then you might have a point with the second part.
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I know nothing about guns. I’ve never shot a gun. If I looked at a gun and was even able to figure out how to look in the chamber without killing myself or someone else, I wouldn’t know if the ammunition was live or a blank. And they use blanks all the time in movies.
Why expect Alec Baldwin to know about guns?
He’s at fault for hiring the armorer, not firing the gun.
Look I don’t know shit about acting or movie sets or armorer’s or any of that shit but…
I’m going to give my opinion anyway.
“Well, George, the casting crew has gotten back to us. Your unique drawl, your frazzled look in an unshaven state, the way you delivered those lines - everything is perfect! You’re the new star actor this studio has been looking for, and perfect to play the villain of our upcoming serial!”
“Well, that’s incredible!”
“Unfortunately, since the character in question holds a gun in two scenes of the series, and you got 2 questions wrong on the firearms exam, we’re going to have to turn you down. We take safety very seriously.”
“Couldn’t…someone else just check weapons for me?”
“They could, but that might involve relying on another person for tasks they’re more suited for, and last I checked, this wasn’t Communismerica.”
